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    Post by Guest on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:03 pm

    1. As far as I understand Krelian´s plan relies totally on Fei destroying Deus. Only in that case the WE is free and human beings can ascend with it into the higher dimension. But isn´t it totally risky by Krelian. He must know that the Zohar modifier will try to absorb Fei before merging with Deus in order to make a perfect awakening. He can´t count on Grahf letting him being absorbed by Zohar in order to give Fei time.

    2. Miang is the will and the weapon of Deus. Does she know that the Wave Existence is trying to escape from Zohar? Probably yes, as she (together with Elly) is the direct clone of the ture mother who had the will of Deus and the WE in her. Before she merges with Deus she wishes Fei a "happy awakening". But she also must know that a prefect contact is needed to be absorbed by Zohar. Only then Zohar can merge with Deus for a perfect awakening. But with the state of mind of Fei at that time he is not the prefect contact, just like Grahf wasn´t when he found Zohar. So it seems to me Krelian and Miang are going into Deus and are waiting for the Zohar to merge with Deus but how can they expect that to happen given the things above.

    3. Krelian makes Deus absorb all human beings and mutants, not only the ones Deus needs for his body. But how can Krelian control Deus with his mind as he is an ordinary human being without the Uroboulus ring. I only can imagine Elly controlling that part of Deus as she is (together with Miang) the core body of Deus. But that would mean Elly agrees with Krelian´s plan...
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    Post by Nikkolas on Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:24 pm

    You might want to inquire about some of this on the Xenogears GameFAQs boards.
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/199365-xenogears

    The people there are a bit more active in the XG front than this place.


    Anyway, I can only really guess at these.

    1. Krelian doesn't know everything. He probably couldn't have known the Zohar would want to absorb The Contact.

    3. Deus, for all its power, is just a machine. Presumably if you knew all about how it worked, as Krelian does thanks to the data from Razael, you could reprogram it. I sincerely doubt Elly ever went along with Krelian's plan at any rate.
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    Post by RadicalDreamer on Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:58 pm

    3. Deus, for all its power, is just a machine. Presumably if you knew all about how it worked, as Krelian does thanks to the data from Razael, you could reprogram it. I sincerely doubt Elly ever went along with Krelian's plan at any rate.

    Deus is a biological weapon with a will (which turned against the Eldridge). Miang is like Deus' remote. And Miang sided with Krelian because his plans suited her/Deus fine. Maybe Krelian hid the part about letting the Contact destroy Uroboros though. Or she knew but didn't care at some level. Logically, the Contact is a danger to Miang/Deus... which raises a question or two : Why did Miang help the Contact at times ? Why did she torture Fei ?

    I don't know if it's from PW or something written by Soraya Saga, but I've read something about Miang actually not being just a program. Something about her wanting to break free (is it possible that a small part of the WE's will went into her by accident when she separated from Elhaym?). Miang/Deus were basically the KOS-MOS of Xenogears in a certain way, playing with the theme of the ghost in the machine. Considering this, maybe it is possible that Miang had moments where she almost tried to sabotage Deus's revival. Like keeping the Contact alive at times. Wishing him a great awakening (unless she was mocking him). As for torturing Fei, maybe she just did this to mess with his psyche and make it really difficult to reach a perfect awakening (especially since Grahf was after him). Maybe Miang herself had a personality disorder that made her an unreliable "remote" for Deus, as she battled between what she was born for and her secret desire to end it all/be free.

    In any case, it seems logical to assume Miang was the one "controlling" Deus to absorb humans, as Krelian was just a regular human being infused with nanomachines and Elly wouldn't have done such a thing (even if she and Krelian apparently spent quite some time interacting in each other mind, which made Elly understand him better).
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    Post by Nikkolas on Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:56 pm

    The Contact is a part of Deus as Grahf himself says:

    Grahf: "Zohar is after you! The last piece to combine with Deus' system. It seeks to unify with you... the first to have been divided from it."

    So that's probably why Miang kept him alive/wished him a good awakening.

    Miang's will is a hotly debated subject. For example, did she actually save Fei because she was Karen? Some people offer up the theory it was still Miang. She saved Fei because he was an invaluable part of her Master, Deus',  plan and she had a considerable investment in him.

    As far as i know the exact nature of Miang's self-determination is never truly elaborated on. Was she capable of defying Deus like Cain did? She does appear to take some clear sadistic joy in various things for example. It's all very murky from what I've read.

    As for Miang controlling Deus to collect the excess humans, I see no real reason for this. She never cared about Krelian's objectives or anyone else's beyond how they helped with Deus being revived.

    As for Deus itself, it's still all controlled by the computer Kadmony. What happened on the Eldridge was simple self-preservation to my eyes. I'm not sure Deus can think like a normal creature. It is still just doing hat it was programmed to do - reviving itself, terraforming the planet, etc..
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    Post by RadicalDreamer on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:02 pm

    Miang's will is a hotly debated subject. For example, did she actually save Fei because she was Karen? Some people offer up the theory it was still Miang. She saved Fei because he was an invaluable part of her Master, Deus', plan and she had a considerable investment in him.

    I'd like to say "both interpretations are valid" but Perfect Works says this on page 167 (Miang's page, Karen's section) :
    Because of Fei's power running out of control, in the instant before he would have been harmed, Karen returned to her true self and shielded Fei, losing her life. However, because the "coward" had hidden this truth away, Karen's true will was not known until Fei's personality was brought back together.
    One thing to remember about Miang : she's apparently not able to sacrifice herself on her own... or so she said to Ramsus. Fei's power killed Karen but she willingly sacrificed her life. Miang should apparently not be able to do that.

    But, whatever, PW seems to say KAREN was the one who sacrificed herself. Yet, it says somewhere else in the book that Miang's host is sealed away completely. So what happened here ? Either Karen broke free by will power/desire to protect her child (a VERY common theme in the game). Or Miang can let her host come to the surface if she wants to. But, as a "program", shouldn't Miang not be able to set her hosts free ? Or is it a sign of Miang having some sort of will on her own somewhere ?

    Reading Karen's section, it also caught my interest that Miang summoned Grahf (like he didn't just happen to find the Wong's house *no, no pun intended*). So, she did want something to happen out of this "meeting". The question is... what ? Did she just wanted to give Fei to Grahf and things backfired (Id's existence) and Karen broke free ? Or maybe she wanted to be indirectly killed and let Karen take the wheel. Why would she need to die ? To continue with the Ramsus manipulation plan without him recognizing her, I guess. Does that mean her crual experiments on Fei were just meant to break his mind in order to slow down/complicate Grahf's plans and the Contact's awakening ?
    I feel like I'm arguing with myself while talking about this game's plot sometimes lol. To be honest, the game is kind of convoluted and confusing when you try to understand every little thing. But well, this game's story is pretty big so...


    As far as i know the exact nature of Miang's self-determination is never truly elaborated on. Was she capable of defying Deus like Cain did? She does appear to take some clear sadistic joy in various things for example. It's all very murky from what I've read.

    It's not clear enough in the game but like I said, side materials/tidbits hint at her not being just a program. Actually, I found this in Perfect Works (I had kinda forgotten about it), on Miang's gallery page (226)... where it explains why they chose a perfume named Contradiction for her (yeah, I don't know why they did this with the perfumes but it's pretty nice as they didn't choose those randomly) :

    Having near eternal life, it seems Miang yearns alone for something. This image is suited to Miang. The derivative words in English of her name means "contradiction", and there is a deep meaning behind this.

    Contradiction can work as Miang being the other side of the Mother (Elhaym) but this quote seems to hint at something unique to Miang herself.
    And like I said, there are also additional stuff that I read. The thing I'm talking about is actually from the Xenogears Comic Anthology book and wikipedia seems to say it is official merchandising (like the 4Koma Comic). You can read the translation here : http://guardian.leamonde.net/manga/anthology4.htm

    As for Miang controlling Deus to collect the excess humans, I see no real reason for this. She never cared about Krelian's objectives or anyone else's beyond how they helped with Deus being revived.
    To be sure, I need to ask you which moment you are talking about. This one ?

    Citan : Deus began to absorb, one after the other, the mutated people, destined to be its parts...
    While the non-mutated, would eventually, only become a threat to it. To exterminate us and our civilization...
    It set into action.
    http://www.xgam.org/xenogears/script/pt25_ch57.html

    And Elly/Miang said this in the chapter before it, in Merkava :

    In actuality, there wasn't enough parts for Deus... But, Krelian compensated for what was lacking.
    The reduction in the number of parts, was due to humans living through multiple generations...
    But that deficiency in the human factor, was made up for by the nanomachines created by Krelian.
    Not only that, but his nanomachines added additional functions.
    Deus has thus evolved into the perfect weapon.

    What tells you the mutated people weren't necessary exactly ?
    They were parts for Deus waiting to be absorbed.
    Krelian helped with nanomachines but that's it. It only helped, not entirely replaced the biological parts planned.
    Miang was pleased with additional functions Krelian came up with and that Deus didn't have back in space, apparently.
    To me, it's proof that Miang was in control. She approved of Krelian's contribution... even with additional stuff that weren't necessary to Deus' revival... just made it more badass. Basically, she let Krelian help for the revival and make Deus even better as a bonus. But he can't control Deus. She does (well... and Elly of course, when she moved Deus at the end). As Grahf says, she's "Deus' main body".
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    Post by Nikkolas on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:16 pm

    This is what I'm referring to:

    Citan: Zohar senses the human consciousness and incarnates the -Seraphs-.

    Billy: Human consciousness...?

    Citan:Zohar itself involves the principle of uncertainty. The observer's perception of Zohar determines the entity it actually becomes. In other words, I believe that those angels are incarnations of the spirits of people... ...The people who have been absorbed by Deus to become parts of it.

    Bart: So what merit is there for them to gain in eliminating all of civilization?

    Maria:Is it some kind of hatred for those humans who have survived

    Citan: Of course not. Those people who were created and assimilated as parts for Deus would not have such intentions. Try to remember what Elly, when she became Miang, said.

    Fei: "The creations of god will someday be a hinderance... That is why they must be eliminated."

    Citan: Yes. That is why Merkava is being used to begin the destruction. But... Deus is not following its programming of exterminating all of civilization... The -Seraphs-, which are terminal interface weapons of Deus, are using their bodies composed of nanomachines to absorb massive numbers of people regardless of whether they are dead or alive. It is not discrimination between the mutant and non-mutant people. This is highly peculiar. The fact that the people who are meant to be destroyed are being taken in as well... That is the absolute opposite of what it is supposed to be doing.

    -------------------------

    This is what the OP was talking about and the proof that Krelian had some control over Deus in my mind. Miang has no interest in the lives of people or making them better off. As Citan said, Deus' actions contradict her very words.  . Krelian though was trying to absorb as many people as possible, to take in their souls so that when Deus was pushed into the higher dimension than all these people would be free of suffering.
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    Post by RadicalDreamer on Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:12 pm

    Ah, okay. This part.
    Citan also adds this :

    "Those intentions... Krelian has called Deus the mother.
    If god is the mother, then those motives are coming from the Great Mother...
    Impending the growth of its child, enveloping it, to bring the child back to the womb to become one with it.
    That is its motive. Such a program does not exist within its design though.
    It was probably given this unique will by someone. Either from Elly who has merged with the Deus or..."

    It could mean this "will" is from Krelian. But if you consider Miang is not entirely ruled by her "programming", it could mean she's allowing what Krelian desires. My opinion is that only Miang or Elly can truly control Deus (think of it as a machine that is wired to them alone). But it doesn't mean they can't be "influenced" by Krelian. After all, Deus absorbing people kinda destroy their flesh and bind them to the machine. It works as much as shooting at them in the end. Maybe Krelian later convinced Miang that absorbing people would have the same result. Honestly, when I look at Perfect Works, it seems that Krelian really was like Miang's advisor and right-hand man for the majority of his 500 years long existence. But I don't think he could have overrided her orders. Maybe the answer to this question is that Miang didn't completely follow her programming to a fault and listened to Krelian.
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    Post by Guest on Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:47 pm

    Thank you guys for some interesting thoughts. Like you RD, I also argued with myself when trying to understand ervery little thing and putting it together with every story aspect. I really like the thought that Miang partly had her own will, maybe her interesting semi seducing style to speak is a sign for that.

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