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    Things I'm confused about

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    FishyFish_RU

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    Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:21 pm

    From time to time I wanted to create this topic, so today I finally do it. I just can't think of it on my on anymore.

    1) First, KOS-MOS says she's the Will of Mary after being awakened. Then she merges with T-elos and claims she's Mary now. Her eyes turn blue.

    But then at the pivotal moment, when she takes Shion's pendant and shatters it, she suddenly claims that she is KOS-MOS, not Mary. I don't understand. And she remains with the red eyes until the end. Even when she dies, chaos calls out "KOS-MOS!" rather than "Mary!"

    I have a feeling that it was really significant and I totally failed to grasp it. I mean, she rejects being Mary when she chooses to respect Shion's wishes over 'saving the world'. What did the author want to say by that?

    It just makes no sense. If Mary and Shion were close in some lifetime before, then shouldn't Mary claim that she chooses Shion (presumably out of love) because's she's Mary? Or does her claim to be KOS-MOS implies that KOS-MOS feelings for Shion proved to be stronger than Mary's ever were?

    2) In that room that preceeded KOS-MOS' awakening, they couldn't find the way further without awakening KOS-MOS. The room was said to be sealed by Mary's will, so it was imperative to awaken Mary's Will.

    My question: if that is so, how in blazes did Wilhelm get past that room and was waiting for the group further along the way?

    I'll post more things that confuse me if I remember more.
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    opkij

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by opkij on Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:18 pm

    Keep them coming!

    If you haven't read the translations of both Episode III guides yet I really recommend doing that,
    they give a lot of answers (and a lot of new questions as well, hehe).

    It has been a while since I read them myself so I don't remember if they give an answer to question 1 but I would say that the KOS-MOS part became stronger than Mary in the end.

    As for the second question, a sealed door is no problem when you know how to teleport...
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:22 pm

    OMG I'm so happy somebody replied in the topic!

    @opkij wrote:If you haven't read the translations of both Episode III guides yet I really recommend doing that,
    they give a lot of answers (and a lot of new questions as well, hehe).
    What are those? I only heard of a Perfect Guide.

    @opkij wrote:It has been a while since I read them myself so I don't remember if they give an answer to question 1 but I would say that the KOS-MOS part became stronger than Mary in the end.
    I don't really get it. Like, at all. KOS-MOS seemed to be an artificial personality who had zero connection to Mary. So I can't quite picture how they'd 'merge'. Unless it was implied that Mary went into a sleep again.

    @opkij wrote:As for the second question, a sealed door is no problem when you know how to teleport...
    Lol... you're right Smile

    I have one more comfusing question.

    3) In the sealed room, Nephilim told Shion that if she decided not to wake KOS-MOS, everybody would understand. Was she serious about that?! So basically if Shion decided not to do that, they'd all just turn their backs and be fine with the fact that the world would perish? (Since even just for Eternal Recurrence they needed to reach Wilhelm...)
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    opkij

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by opkij on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:37 am

    Haha, don't worry, you will always get a reply... it just might take a while.

    In a few days it will be the 10th anniversary of Episode III and the end of the series, I spent all those years thinking about things like this, I have tried my best not to but it seems we will never be free and get all the answers...

    Perfect Guide and the Official Complete Guide are the ones, most information is in the Perfect guide and it really clears up some things. Also the Episode I book "ODM" is still very interesting as well as
    Pied Piper if you want to now as much as possible about Xeno.

    I hope that someone else can explain the whole KOS-MOS/Mary situation better than me, I know it is hard to understand how the merge works, both the merge of T-elos and then KOS-MOS and Mary, they are all one now.

    Haha, that would have been one bad ending, not opening the sealed door and just wait for the destruction.
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    キキキ

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by キキキ on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:33 am

    Ok... So I haven't looked at any books so this isn't official unless my guess is right.

    I always thought of body, blood and Holy Spirit when it came to Telos Kosmos and Shion. Telos is body, Kosmos is blood and Shion is Holy Spirit. This may not make perfect sense but it's what I thought.

    chaos calling Kosmos... Well Kosmos is more of a thing done in consideration. Mary is split between three beings, no one person is Mary. To call Kosmos Mary would insult Shion and Telos -I don't think either would have cared-. However, that's is just my own thoughts. I never did look it up as I never really thought there was a reason to.

    I am myself curious now. I'm pretty sure my thinking isn't what they were going for but if anyone could explain what they actually were going for I would be happy.
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:15 am

    Umm... Shion is Mary? That never occured to me.

    I thought that Mary is only connected to KOS-MOS and T-elos and Shion is a completely separate entity who probably used to be her friend back on Earth.

    I hope someone else can explain. Enlighten us, please!
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:55 am

    4) Kevin says to Shion in the hospital: "The only ones who can save you are me and T-elos."

    Any idea how he was going to save her? I had one before, but after he mentioned T-elos I'm sure I was wrong. She'd be unnecessary for the kind of saving I envisioned.

    Did Wilhelm lie to him about some saving method that didn't exist? After all, it's not like setting an Eternal Recurrence in motion again could help save Shion. She'd just be reset. And I don't think that that's what Kevin had in mind.

    samarishim

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by samarishim on Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:01 pm

    To Fishy In answer to #4 From X3 Perfect Guide <> What Kevin was seeking was a new world. The creation of a world where he could save the dying Shion, and live together with her forever.
        Wilhelm may not have conveyed the true outcome of Eternal Recurrence to Kevin. Eternal Recurrence is supposed to be the repeating of an identical history.
        If he had known this, Kevin, who denied and hated the past, might not have wished for Eternal Recurrence, which would once again repeat that past.
        After the reverting, it may not be possible to construct a future different from the previous time. Kevin believed in such a false possibility, and utilized everything because he clung to that.
    He wanted to save her by reverting the world.

    #1 is more tricky. But yes Shion is a completely separate entity who probably used to be her friend back on Earth. Paraphrased from X3 perfect guide Shion's previous existence is the Maiden of Maria, the Maiden was to Maria what the Apostles were for the Messiah.

    I can't answer to which personality's love for Shion wins out though, although I'll try to answer the rest of your question.

    From X3 game English translation The last time "Mary" wakes up her consciousness says that she both is and isn't Mary at the same time. Wasn't it you who (Shion) said that the heart changes from one moment to the next, and that she doesn't know what will happen after merging with T-elos and becoming the True or Complete Mary. So there's already some disassociation between the past and present showing of "Mary's consciousness" in this situation.

    Also the script for Eternal Recurrence was going off the rails, KOS-MOS won over T-elos, Shion as the Maiden of Mary rejected Eternal Recurrence, so there was a possibility of different choices being made this time.

    My headcanon on it is that in past Eternal Recurrences when Mary's consciousness in T-elos and Shion chose Eternal Recurrence Mary's consciousness ultimately identified as Mary, disregardint the # of times T-elos beat KOS-MOS. Who knows maybe T-elos only had to beat KOS-MOS once vs two times. But with all the changes, and the new possibility space opened up because of them why shouldn't Mary's consciousness reject the legacy of past Marys in T-elos's body who completed Eternal Recurrence, and identify with the name/identity of her newest body.

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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:36 am

    Thanks a lot! It really helps.

    I'd like to clarify what you meant by "Shion's previous existence is the Maiden of Maria, the Maiden was to Maria what the Apostles were for the Messiah". I'm rather ignorant about Christianity, but were you saying that Shion was Mary's disciple?

    And... I've got a new question.

    5) If I haven't misunderstood what I saw, we had one strange moment in the game. We were shown a cutscene moment in which Mary (I believe) was standing on her kneels on the floor in some house, and chaos (I believe) was leaving through the door. What on earth did that mean? It must've had some significance, otherwise they wouldn't have shown it. I don't think it was about some kind of stupid argument and chaos leaving proudly, lol. But I suppose it signifies some kind of big disagreement.

    samarishim

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by samarishim on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:13 pm

    Sorry, I should have been more clear. Maria's Maiden was at the very least a follower, judging by how she constantly accompanied her. Also the Maiden's ability is the ignition that allows the release/control of the power of Animus, which parallels how the function of Animus (Maria) is meant to control the power of Anima (chaos), & the system that uses the power of the relics of God.
    I agree that the flashback is likely significant. But first let us consider it in it's broader context. it's the 2nd of 3 of Maria's flashbacks. That 1st flashback we saw when she was with chaos and the others listening to the Messiah's sermon was the last time we saw her smiling. The 2nd scene is the house scene, and things have probably gone downhill emotionally for Maria. The 3rd is her cradling someone in her arms, likely her Maiden. The 4th scene because I'm unsure if it its a true flashback is her crying in a field of flowers wouldn't be surprised if they were either cosmos or Aster tataricus (shion) flowers. In game quote "I see, you’ve lost sight of yourself, you don’t know who you are anymore. You don’t even know where you stand, & you feel alone. Let's try and find out why you are here.

    The dialogue implies that the 2nd-4th flashbacks are all something Maria is at the very least sad over.

    But the things/history those flashbacks show wasn't explained in detail officially, will likely remain that way, and we don't know in what order they take place in so we're heading into headcanon territory.

    So assuming the 4th scene is what Maria feels toward her past and not her upcoming awakening in KOS-MOS's body, I'll place my bets on the 2nd scene of chaos and her in the house having something to do with their failed dimensional shift to the Upper Domain, possibly leading to the power of Anima going out of control leading to Maria sacrificing her body to split the power of Anima.
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:24 pm

    @samarishim wrote:So assuming the 4th scene is what Maria feels toward her past and not her upcoming awakening in KOS-MOS's body, I'll place my bets on the 2nd scene of chaos and her in the house having something to do with their failed dimensional shift to the Upper Domain, possibly leading to the power of Anima going out of control leading to Maria sacrificing her body to split the power of Anima.
    Umm... Why did they try that? And whom\what did they try to shift?

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by samarishim on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:57 pm

    They thought it would bring happiness to mankind, (& maybe slow down or avoid the Lower Domain's Collapse) and they tried to shift I think at least the entirety of planet Earth to the Upper Domain.
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:00 pm

    Why did they fail?

    I remember Wilhelm saying something alike in the game, about Zarathustra being used to make people into gods... and about the god who didn't allow that. At least I think that he was talking about the same thing.

    Who was that god?

    Oh, I now have a sixth question...

    6) Wilhelm says in the game: "U-DO is the god of this world". Is that true? (U-DO seems not to know a damn thing about the world and is pretty helpless for a god...)

    samarishim

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by samarishim on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:33 pm

    I think the experiment went out of control due to either too much Anima resonance by the people performing the experiment or the overuse of Lemegeton.

    From X3 perfect guide "in Lemegeton there was also its own Failsafe function.
        It is something that would be invoked when too much access had been performed by Lemegeton, and would automatically correct the balance between the upper and lower domains.
         Eliminating things that were accomplished by the use of Lemegeton. Those things are completely erased from the universe; a complete deletion.

    When you ask Who was that god? are you referring to U-DO?
    Also, what do you mean by the term "god?" If you mean creator of the lower domain then no. I think that might have been mistranslated, if Wilhelm was to be more clear he'd say something like "U-DO is perceived to be a god like being in the Lower Domain due to it's overwhelming power that can make miracles happen."

    You're right U-DO doesn't know much about the Lower Domain.
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:08 pm

    7) When U-DO says to Shion "That's right, I'm alone. Only that song heals me", what is it talking about?!

    The only 'song' that comes to mind is the Song of Nephilim, but c'mon, a song to summon the Gnosis is the only thing dear to U-DO's heart in the whole world? Ahahahah!

    P.S. Thanks a lot for answering my questions, btw, I'm very happy Smile

    Neosmith

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    Re: Things I'm confused about

    Post by Neosmith on Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:32 am

    @FishyFish_RU wrote:7) When U-DO says to Shion "That's right, I'm alone. Only that song heals me", what is it talking about?!

    The only 'song' that comes to mind is the Song of Nephilim, but c'mon, a song to summon the Gnosis is the only thing dear to U-DO's heart in the whole world? Ahahahah!

    I've been quite curious about that myself. I mean, the whole SoN/Lemegetton thing with Abel and U-DO is endlessly convoluted - he might mean that he feels connected and not alone only when the words of God are invoked.


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