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    Yuriev Power Level Talk

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    Nikkolas

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    Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Nikkolas on Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:34 pm

    Thinking of Yuriev, I'm reminded of Fatman's quote from Metal Gear Solid 2. "I am the greatest that humanity has to offer, and the lowest."

    He was a genius beaten only by the unbeatable Wilhelm and was so close to achieving his objective. So close.

    We know that Abel is the key to utilizing the Zohar's full potential. The EP3 database has this to say for Omega Res Novae:
    "Although it does not house the Original Zohar itself, it uses Abel as its core module and an emulator as an auxiliary, making its power far greater than the original Proto Omega."



    Even though Proto Omega had the Original, it is weaker than an emulator-powered object because of Abel. Also the database entry for Omega Metempsychosis has this to say:
    "Abel has been built into the control device in the unit's core, due to the need for the higher-dimensional "power" flowing directly through the Zohar to be stabilized for dimensional space."



    The point is Yuriev was not bluffing when he said the power he wielded was infinite - thanks to the Zohar and Abel he could tap into the limitless Upper Domain energy. He was unstoppable.

    Then Albedo showed up...

    How did Yuriev lose here?

    Also, another question!

    But we know from Wilhelm and side stuff that the attempt to enter the "Upper Domain" had failed when it was tried in the past:
    "Zarathustra is one of the systems created by people in ancient times. It was used to  ascend to the realm of God. It was orchestrated by Mary and its power source was you, right, Yeshua? But it didn't turn out the way they expected."



    But Yuriev was not using chaos and the power of Anima, he was using the infinite power of the Zohar. But since the Zohar and Abel are, in fact, drawing off U-DO's own power, could Yuriev have achieved his ambition? If he had gotten to Michtam and Zarathustra, could he have ascended to the Upper Domain?

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Guest on Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:27 pm

    Oh man I've barely posted, but I've been drawn out into the open with talk of Yuriev haha

    Two things, when Albedo comes to the Ark, Abel and the Zohar are sent to Michtam. Also, Yuriev has been contaminated by U-DO and the URTVs are anti-UDO existences, so they are able to form the link and take out Yuriev.

    Unfortunately, it would have been impossible for him to ascend to the Upper Domain...I'm pretty sure it explicitly states it somewhere in the perfect guide that such a thing is impossible, I'll edit this post when I find it.
    I just hope he escaped his fear through death then ;A;



    EDIT- okay I don't know why I have the feeling that it's elsewhere, but there is Wilhelm's line in chapter 9 "God did not permit mankind's actions." after the whole didn't turn out the way they expected line.... the only thing I've found in the guide so far is "But, he didn't understand what kind of situation it would become due to shift to the upper domain.  Also, because he recognized Abel only as a child who could pilot Omega, he did not correctly comprehend U-DO's existence."



    Always found it amusing how he knew Abel even back in the transfer experiment days, and yet failed to realize he was U-DO's observational terminal after all that time and U-DO research.
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    Yikari

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Yikari on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:50 am

    I like Dr. Yuriev quite strongly (as a character I mean; on a personal level, the dude is a douchebag in general and likes to make people into his cat's paw way too much), but I won't be able to give you a concise and sensible explanation for what in the bloody hell transpired in there.

    In my experience, there is a certain point in every JRPG I've ever played (and in the vast majority of other RPGs and just games in general, to be honest) where the plot stops making sense in non-meta terms and the game just throws strange location designs and over-the-top boss encounters at you until the titles roll. IMHO, both questions pertain to sections that are waaay beyond that point for Xenosaga.

    I'm sorry if it is off-topic, seeing as how I don't even try to offer an answer here, but if I were to ever participate in writing a story involving either Yuriev or Wilhelm, I would rather vote clean-slating the whole mess and start it all anew from the ground up than try to tease out a coherent answer out of canon.

    I certainly may have missed something, but from what I've seen of the game itslef, the information it presents in its database and extra materials I've got my hands on, it doesn't make one lick of sense. It's like reading a text where individual words have meaning, but when you put them on the same page it is suddenly written in a cipher you don't know how to read.

    XXX

    That said, if one were to sort this bedlam out for the purposes of fanproduction or just out of idle curiousity, I would recommend starting with U-DO. The answer to the "What the fudge is that?" question is essential.

    We have a thread somewhere around here with various snippets of information collected all in one place with commentary provided by the heroic soul who braved all that stuff (or was that only about UMN? can't remember off the top of my head, but I think there were some parts about U-DO too), yes, but... well, I wasn't able to gather all that much apart from 'it does what we want it to do to move the plot along right now'. I don't think there are many places where the information directly contradicts each other, but they don't exactly form a structure that could allow to predict what would happen in any of the 'what if?' scenarios either; in my opinion, all that wealth of text the developers have provided us with is completely unhelpful for actual wordlbuilding.

    And the worst of all, it appears that the concept of U-DO got changed around between each of the episodes in creators' minds too (i.e., what we see U-DO doing in episode II with nanomachines left in its 'area of effect' has absolutely no bearing on what U-DO was shown to do in episode III), thus making all the instances of U-DO's manifestations we actually see in-game useless for the purposes reasoning out 'hows' and 'whys'.

    XXX

    I'm sorry if I rambled off-topic, this tangent really belongs to another thread, but I still want to share this opinion, such as it is.

    Neosmith

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Neosmith on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:41 pm

    Nikkolas:

    On the subject of power levels - one of the problems is that Xenosaga never really defined the power levels of its characters. Wilhelm, KOS-MOS, Chaos and Shion all ostensibly possess God-like abilities. The Testaments are something closer to demigods.

    But what exactly the limits of their powers are and how they all exist relatively to one another is not really explained. So, that makes it very difficult to determine where Omega Yuriev fits in. I mean, he's supposed to be pretty powerful but his power is linked to the infinite energy of the Zohar. When he merges with Omega, the Mech transforms into its "ultimate" Metempsychosis form.

    And then somehow, Albedo just removes the Zohar without breaking a sweat and teleports it away with Abel, apparently de-powering Yuriev - so, does that Omega Yuriev is weaker than a Testament even before losing the Zohar? Honestly, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I suppose the developers ran out of money by that point and couldn't really give us an Omega Yuriev/Albedo duel.

    In any case, I would say that power levels are relative to the needs of the plot.

    Neosmith

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Neosmith on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:08 pm

    Yikari:
    Just wanted to say - I agree with virtually everything you're saying, especially:
    it doesn't make one lick of sense. It's like reading a text where individual words have meaning, but when you put them on the same page it is suddenly written in a cipher you don't know how to read.

    We have a thread somewhere around here with various snippets of information collected all in one place with commentary provided by the heroic soul who braved all that stuff (or was that only about UMN? can't remember off the top of my head, but I think there were some parts about U-DO too), yes, but... well, I wasn't able to gather all that much apart from 'it does what we want it to do to move the plot along right now'. I don't think there are many places where the information directly contradicts each other, but they don't exactly form a structure that could allow to predict what would happen in any of the 'what if?' scenarios either; in my opinion, all that wealth of text the developers have provided us with is completely unhelpful for actual wordlbuilding.

    And the worst of all, it appears that the concept of U-DO got changed around between each of the episodes in creators' minds too (i.e., what we see U-DO doing in episode II with nanomachines left in its 'area of effect' has absolutely no bearing on what U-DO was shown to do in episode III), thus making all the instances of U-DO's manifestations we actually see in-game useless for the purposes reasoning out 'hows' and 'whys'.

    I think you're talking about my re-posting of the UMN stuff back in November. (Thanks for the shout-out!) Unfortunately, my posts have been erratic and I kinda forgot about that thread after a while, since I was super busy with everything non Xeno.  :laugh4:

    That was part of my whole examination of how the canon of the series had changed over time called "Contesting the Master Plan"., which would've included about 12 essays examining different subjects in the series that were altered via retroactive continuity. I still dream of writing that one day, but the number of changes is so massive and the writing so time consuming that it looks like I might have to table many of the other entries.

    One I'm sure I will get to is called "The Many Deaths of Sakura Mizrahi", which examines the multiple versions of Sakura's death and hypothesizes as to why her death kept getting revised (I've counted about 4 different versions of her fate so far).

    I'm also happy to see you remarking about U-DO.  I was, in fact, working on an epic U-DO article at Tensei and had posted up to chapter 3 when Tensei went offline, leaving the next 7-10 chapters of this mammoth article unpublished. They're still in production, in various stages, but right now I don't have the time to really focus on them unfortunately. I hope to re-post my original chapters and write/publish the remaining ones later this year - possibly on the wiki, the forum or a blog - we'll see.

    My particular view, and one that many fans have actively disagreed with, is that U-DO was initially conceived as an AI that evolved into a Wave Entity. Basically, here's a cliff notes version of its original in-game history that I've managed to piece together using available early Episode 1 information.

    1. Earth - UMN is technological construct created to control Zohar.

    2. U-DO built as UMN control AI to regulate Zohar energy manipulation - a Zohar Control System.

    3. U-DO's exposure to Zohar Waves evolves its consciousness, making it sentient/self-aware.

    4. U-DO physical 'body' is possibly lost/destroyed/deactivated. Its waveform/consciousness remains at the core of the UMN. It feeds on those that approach the core.

    5. Flash forward to Miltian Conflict:

    Using Cecily and Cathe, Mizrahi creates a prison that binds U-DO's consciousness to the physical realm - specifically, to Labyrinthos/Miltia - and allows it to be placed under control.

    This is a new Zohar Control System he dubs the "U-DO System".

    6. By controlling AIWE U-DO, Mizrahi/UTIC control the Zohar itself.

    7. Due to Miltian Conflict events, U-DO temporarily goes out of control/awakens. Hence, Zohar goes out of control. Hence, Anomaly.

    8. U-DO remains trapped in a dormant state (asleep) in its physical prison on Labyrinthos, but yearns for freedom. That is why it bleeds out of the walls. (Possibly, it wants to re-connect with a part of itself that was stolen by a higher-dimensional consciousness, but that's another story...)

    9. UTIC is after U-DO to reactivate the Cecily/Cathe system and regain control of Zohar.)
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    Yikari

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Yikari on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:52 am

    Neosmith:
    Ah, that was you? Sorry, I really should remember names better.

    I don't think I can adequately express how much I want to see more of the stuff from the series you mention. Even if pretty much everything talking about Xenosaga's plot is likely to just leave me with a headache and a vague sense of unfulfillment. :D

    @Neosmith wrote:
    My particular view, and one that many fans have actively disagreed with, is that U-DO was initially conceived as an AI that evolved into a Wave Entity.

    I'm not entirely sure I understand this bit here. What is there to 'actively disagree' with?

    I don't exactly remember each and every plot point that goes into the list you've posted with just my memory alone, but I don't remember any plot points that would contradict that list either. And it meshes with Ep. I and II better than 'U-DO is something like a God that believes humanity has turned their universe to shit and it would be better to close down the whole joint' Ep. III seemed to have gone with anyway.

    (On a side note, I giggle every time I see how often phrases like 'bring under control' and 'went out of control' get mentioned when Xenosaga's plot points get discussed. Yes, it is a long time staple of the genre by now, but it is a bit unreal how often it comes up in the game. Mass Effect's storm of memes about 'ASSUMING CONTROL' is looking positively mild in comparison).

    EDIT:
    And now, for some bizarre reason, the mental image of Albedo paraphrasing recent events of any of the numerous plot turns with gravely serious remark of "...one could say the situation went out of control"

    *insert the YEAAAH sunglasses macro*.

    ...I'll show myself out now.

    Neosmith

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Neosmith on Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:51 pm

    I don't think I can adequately express how much I want to see more of the stuff from the series you mention. Even if pretty much everything talking about Xenosaga's plot is likely to just leave me with a headache and a vague sense of unfulfillment. Very Happy
    Thanks! I wish I had more feedback like that when I was actively writing on Tensei, though admittedly my views of the series' writing were at time very, very disparaging. I think my 3-part examination of the "Mech Factor" and the way that it influenced the series' overarching plot was one of the best things I'd written at the time.

    I'm not entirely sure I understand this bit here. What is there to 'actively disagree' with?

    I don't exactly remember each and every plot point that goes into the list you've posted with just my memory alone, but I don't remember any plot points that would contradict that list either. And it meshes with Ep. I and II better than 'U-DO is something like a God that believes humanity has turned their universe to shit and it would be better to close down the whole joint' Ep. III seemed to have gone with anyway.
    LOL.  :laugh4:
    You should read some of the Forum Battles I've had with AC over with this, if Tensei ever returns.

    Somehow, the notion that U-DO was always intended to be the Higher Dimensional God of E3 became the primary indicator of Xenosaga's brilliance. Claiming and providing evidence that U-DO was conceived as an AIWE was read as slander and an insult to Tetsuya Takahashi. And all the most obvious contradictions to the E3 version were either red herrings or claims that couldn't be taken at face value. In fact, it was that dialogue that really inspired me to write the 10-13 chapter U-DO examination, to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt as to what U-DO was and what it became.

    This meant combing through every appearance of U-DO and every line of dialogue mentioning U-DO in the games, all the databases, guide references, early leaked production notes, facts about the regime change between E1 and E2 and cross-checking them.

    Anyway, I'm glad to hear you like it and I'll be hopefully working on posting a few more chapters this summer.

    (On a side note, I giggle every time I see how often phrases like 'bring under control' and 'went out of control' get mentioned when Xenosaga's plot points get discussed. Yes, it is a long time staple of the genre by now, but it is a bit unreal how often it comes up in the game. Mass Effect's storm of memes about 'ASSUMING CONTROL' is looking positively mild in comparison).
    Same thing for the destruction of the universe, which has like 10 different causes.


    Last edited by 69 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Nikkolas

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Nikkolas on Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:54 pm

    Ido wrote:Oh man I've barely posted, but I've been drawn out into the open with talk of Yuriev haha

    Two things, when Albedo comes to the Ark, Abel and the Zohar are sent to Michtam. Also, Yuriev has been contaminated by U-DO and the URTVs are anti-UDO existences, so they are able to form the link and take out Yuriev.

    Unfortunately, it would have been impossible for him to ascend to the Upper Domain...I'm pretty sure it explicitly states it somewhere in the perfect guide that such a thing is impossible, I'll edit this post when I find it.
    I just hope he escaped his fear through death then ;A;



    EDIT- okay I don't know why I have the feeling that it's elsewhere, but there is Wilhelm's line in chapter 9 "God did not permit mankind's actions." after the whole didn't turn out the way they expected line.... the only thing I've found in the guide so far is "

    But, he didn't understand what kind of situation it would become due to shift to the upper domain.  Also, because he recognized Abel only as a child who could pilot Omega, he did not correctly comprehend U-DO's existence."



    Always found it amusing how he knew Abel even back in the transfer experiment days, and yet failed to realize he was U-DO's observational terminal after all that time and U-DO research.

    Yeah i also looked at the guide. I don't think it says he couldn't ascend to the upper domain, just that he doesn't understand what it's like to live in such a world. I don't think any human COULD properly conceive of existence in such a form.

    As for the bit with Abel being U-DO and Yuriev relying on U-DO to try and surpass U-DO, it is intensely ironic and I'm pretty sure fully intentional. Like I said in the OP, Yuriev is both amazing brilliant and amazingly blind. He is the best and the worst human beings can achieve. In his blindness he struggled and achieved great things but he was still blind to the truth.

    Not that it's totally his fault - a human being coming into contact with "God" and having "God" implant the fear of absolute annihilation into their very soul is not something easily overcome. He and Voyager both never could overcome it and Albedo was also strongly effected by it. (although I guess being a Testament helped him? It didn't help Erich....)

    Nikkolas

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    Re: Yuriev Power Level Talk

    Post by Nikkolas on Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:36 pm

    And here's something interesting now I re-watch the cutscene.
    https://youtu.be/ztPDPUG9CL4?t=1m5s

    It looks to me like Abel faints.

    As Yuriev was only siphoning power off of Omega through Abel, if Abel was rendered unconscious or something and thus unable to hear Yuriev's commands, Yuriev would lose his source of power/ability to control that power.

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