XB: True Xeno Series Legitimacy Issues?

It's not a secret that Xenoblade was originally titled Monado: The Beginning of the World. The Xeno title was appointed after the fact. Lumping Xenoblade in with Xenogears and Xenosaga isn't something I'm doing because I think they're part of the same canon, but I think it deserves a place because it's been legitimized by Nintendo. I had thought of having Xeno Underground be a celebration of all of Monolith's works, but since I haven't played Baten Kaitos, Soma Bringer or the other titles that have slipped past my notice, I feel underqualified to run such a community.

Sorry for getting a little long-winded. Anyway, I realize and respect the fact that some of you may not like Xenoblade, and that's okay. I just wanted a place for fans of XB to talk as well.

katimus wrote:It's not a secret that Xenoblade was originally titled Monado: The Beginning of the World. The Xeno title was appointed after the fact in order to honor Mr. Takahashi's works.

Hey, kat, don't let AC hear you say that or he'll go ballistic about how the title change had nothing to do with honoring Takahashi - that whole honor thing is reportedly a result of an incorrect translation. Takahashi has given conflicting explanations in different interviews, as to why the game bears this name, so there really isn't much consensus.

One explanation is that he supposedly wanted all of his games to have a common point of origin.

Neosmith wrote:

katimus wrote:It's not a secret that Xenoblade was originally titled Monado: The Beginning of the World. The Xeno title was appointed after the fact in order to honor Mr. Takahashi's works.

Hey, kat, don't let AC hear you say that or he'll go ballistic about how the title change had nothing to do with honoring Takahashi - that whole honor thing is reportedly a result of an incorrect translation. Takahashi has given conflicting explanations in different interviews, as to why the game bears this name, so there really isn't much consensus.

One explanation is that he supposedly wanted all of his games to have a common point of origin.

Ah, looks like I was misinformed, then.  ::shrugpony:: I'll fix it.  Thanks for lettin' me know.  :3

I really think the argument is semantic.  Whether or not the game had the title originally, it's still a great RPG by Takahashi and co. and deserving of the fandom it has.  The tone is completely different, it's much lighter and adventure-driven, but you're still dealing with false gods and existential issues.  Even if the title was Monado: Beginning of the World, I would still have noticed the parallels and little homages.  I can tell you I almost lost it when "squarestache" was punching his own men at some point in the game, and my boyfriend had no idea what I was laughing at.

So no, I don't think it's meant to be related as Saga is sorta-kinda related to Gears, to the point that it features reboots certain characters like Fei/Abel and Elly/Nephilim.   But I still consider it a spiritual successor no matter what the title may be.  

Xenoblade is just so much catchier and easier to market.  I think maybe Takahashi and co. were tying to inch away from the association, since both Gears and Saga had such mishaps in production, and supposedly Takahashi was disappointed with the game.   But then Nintendo was like hey guys, we have to sell this game so we're gonna make the title snappy okay!  But that's just my speculation.  Who knows what actually goes on with them.

^ Pretty much? Honestly, we don't really know the official story and, as fans, probably never will? All we can kinda do is guess, but I just wanted to underline the fact that herp derp, I'm not going into this like I don't know the difference between the IPs.

Considering the end of Xenoblade, and the 'beginning of the world' surname, I have no issues with anyone who wants to get creative over how Xenoblade fits in with the other games.

Personally, I don't like seeing people lumping Xenoblade with Xenosaga and Xenogears. They're not the same at all.

Even my "Xenoblade" fanart folder is called Monado and separated from my Xenogears/Saga folder lol. Not long ago, I heard someone saying "Hey, did you play the first Xenoblade on PS1?"

and was like :  :frown3:  :embarrassed: .

I even wish "X" did not feature Xenogears' red cross because it gives the wrong impression on what kind of game Takahashi's future title is going to be like (aside the mechas... I don't think it will be like Xenogears or at the same level *I'd be glad to be wrong and be completely engrossed in the story and characters however*).

Also, it hurts as a fan because Xenogears is probably never going to get the remake and prequels/sequel it deserves. Some Xenoblade fans like to say that Xenogears and Saga are dead, that the Xeno name don't sell anymore and that their fans need to move on... but how can I realistically move on if Nintendo/Takahashi baits me with old symbols ?

I think there is a LOT of Xenoblade fans who either don't know a thing about Takahashi's past games or completely loathe them (either because they think the story is pretentious or because of the corridors/cutscenes... or both). I think the old fans (coming from Xenogears/Saga) and the "new" ones are a different crowd, really.
Concerning the old crowd... we have hardcore Xenogears/Saga fans who can't stand what Takahashi is doing with his new games (like A.C... but well, he's not much of a gamer, if at all... which explains why he can't enjoy a thing about Xenoblade *his nasty remarks are still uncalled for though*) while others are missing the older more interesting characters and storylines but still enjoy the focus on gameplay in the new games. I'm in the second category myself (aside from the fact that I wish Takahashi dropped the Xeno prefix completely at this point). I enjoyed playing Xenoblade. I just wish the next games could be more mature and interesting while developping further the open world concept and the sidequests (because Xenoblade's strenght was the exploration but the sidequests in themselves were lazy and I wanted to learn stuff about the world and it didn't happen much honestly *like this quest in the

Spoiler:

village when a NPC asked me to find 4 cards in Mechonis in exchange of information about their culture or something... he lied  :furious3: , I got a lame item instead*).

RadicalDreamer wrote:

Also, it hurts as a fan because Xenogears is probably never going to get the remake and prequels/sequel it deserves. Some Xenoblade fans like to say that Xenogears and Saga are dead, that the Xeno name don't sell anymore and that their fans need to move on... but how can I realistically move on if Nintendo/Takahashi baits me with old symbols ?

Woah, there are people en masse who actually say that?  

Honestly, I've been thinking about putting Xenoblade/Monado into its own section here, but I haven't yet, because there's just really not that much activity to warrant making a big deal out of it, but if it's something people feel needs to be done, I can easily do it.  I hope this upcoming X project is closer and better written to Gears at least.  Honestly, I felt a little let down at first when Xenosaga failed to be Xenogears, but at least it ended up just as complex.  Considering that Monolith has come so close to death so many times, I chalked it up as a miracle that Xenoblade was even developed, but I see what people are saying, and I think it's a legitimate expectation that plastering big red Xes on things raises a lot of attentions and standards.  Xenoblade got a free pass for me not being as complex because I honestly thought the studio had died while XSIII was in development, but Project X has a big reputation to fill.  

I enjoy Xenoblade for what it is, and I enjoy the company of the fans I've met that also enjoy it, but it's not and shouldn't be mutually exclusive to my love of Saga and Gears.  Half the time I hang around XenoTen, I hear "eew, Monado" this and "egh, Mondado" that, and I understand their frustration, but I don't like that kind of atmosphere.

katimus_prime wrote:
Woah, there are people en masse who actually say that?

Mainly the people who enjoy Xenoblade for being kinda like Skyrim/light on story (and want Takahashi's future games to stay like that) and think Xenosaga and Xenogears were "huge pieces of convoluted s**t".
Go read the stuff some people can write on neogaf for example (the new "X" thread). Someone asked if people wanted a return to storylines à la Xenogears and people were really split about it.

Thankfully, there are a few people who loved Gears and Saga and would like to see a return to more mature and complex storylines (without dropping the open world gameplay, which I agree with) but I don't know how much fans like that Xenoblade has as a whole. There are also people who don't know anything about Gears and Saga and don't have an opinion on the subject (I don't blame that much european folks though, we never could experience Gears and Saga legally over here and Xenoblade is the most popular title by default, it's normal). I think they still would be surprised (in a bad or good way, depends on how they like their jRPGs) if they picked Xenosaga or Xenogears and expected those games to be like Xenoblade.

Egh, well, I've never done that much board-surfing outside of Xenolegacy/Godsibb/XenoTen/XG Fansite. Sounds like I'd just get into a string of endless arguments with people there. o_o;

I guess coming from a majority of Blade people being superior generates the backlash I see on XenoTen. Outside of tumblr, I don't interact with a lot of XB fans.

I made an account just to post on this thread. (I love y'all that I know here but I just am horrible with keeping up with forums )

But I had just to say the Xenoblade fandom isn't just full of babies who haven't played the earlier games or think they were bad. Is this what the "elite" older games' fandoms think of us? Really? I played both Xenogears and Xenosaga on release and love them, and guess what, I love Xenoblade too. I think it's a great story that's more accessible to people, with awesome gameplay, and it's just what they needed to become a "legit" name again in the gaming world. It also clearly has thematic links with the rest of the Xeno games. I don't see anything wrong with it and frankly, if that makes me a plebian who doesn't know a real story then fine. It was the most engrossing and rewarding gaming experience I've ever had, and I didn't feel like "this could have been so much better" as I did with the previous two, as much as I love them. For that I'm extremely happy and thankful, that I was able to play a Xeno game I felt was complete (even if it wasn't up to Takahashi's standards, yada yada, it was a finished game. I guess it sucks for some that there's not tons of loose ends to endlessly speculate on)

There, I said my piece. Try to be a little open minded towards the new kids, some of us oldies are hanging out with them too.

As a fellow oldie hanging out with the new kids, I just wanted to reiterate on top of this that I have never personally run into a Xenoblade fan who thinks themselves superior to others.

Rinkara wrote:But I had just to say the Xenoblade fandom isn't just full of babies who haven't played the earlier games or think they were bad. Is this what the "elite" older games' fandoms think of us?

Not all of you of course. But some people in your fandom are like that and it's annoying and pretty sad to witness as an older fan who already had to go through Xenogears/Saga bashing before by some of the same guys who praise Xenoblade now.

I guess you have to understand that most Xenoblade fans enjoy the MMORPG/FF12/open world aspect the most (since it's what the game does best) while the old fans were mainly into Xeno because of the story (since Takahashi and his wife mainly focused their creative energy on giving us personal and passionate storylines and characters, as over ambitious they were). Logically, both fandom are going to be seeking different stuff from Takahashi and the former is the one who is going to be the most satisfied by Takahashi's future games (which, imo, are going to be more and more exploration/gameplay focused like Skyrim and such... I totally expect a real MMORPG from Takahashi one of these days).

To see a drop in story/character "quality" is just disappointing to "old geezers" like us. Well, when I say that, I talk about the characters and storyline not being as interesting as before. It may be better executed and complete (which is a good thing and I understand why some people consider Xenoblade to be the better game because of it) but Xenoblade is pretty much just another standard jRPG to me (kinda like the Tales of games) in term of story and it's not the thing that will draw me back to the game if I decide to replay it.

Xenogears and Saga are incomplete and unperfect... but they are way more genuine and complex than Xenoblade (mainly because, like I said, they were Takahashi and Soraya Saga's babies and the story for Blade was built after Takahashi had come up with a concept *the 2 gods as worlds to explore* it was an entirely different process where the story was meant to service the concept/gameplay, not the world/gameplay servicing the story like it was with Gears and Saga) and they just... clicked with me (Xenosaga 3 immediately... Xenogears was slower to steal my heart and make me feel heavy stuff *I still liked it a lot during my first playthrough, so much mystery* but when it did.... wowza... and it will never let me go I think). And sometimes, I think the fact that they were so ambigous and have holes to fill (like missing episodes and remakes to be done) is one of the reasons why I enjoy them this much and more than Blade. There is SO MUCH stuff open to interpretation/imagination and the games became so personal to each fan because of this. Xenogears and Saga are also like huge creative sandbox for artists. The "might have been"s and the overall potential of these games are just mindblowing.

Up until

Spoiler:

, I played Xenoblade almost just for the sake of playing it, without the hype most people were feeling (dunno which fault it was... the boring plot with awkward character introduction *hi Sharla* or the incessant wave of sidequests that my completionist self couldn't help but machinally complete). Sometimes, a few superficial (and maybe not intentional) Xenogears/Saga callbacks made me feel nostalgic (high entia tomb = Shevat shafts, chiming sounding music in Ether mine = Kajiura music in some Xenosaga 3 caves...) but that was it. Then, the plot finally got to develop and I enjoyed the story a bit more (still got annoyed at some clichés that I knew were coming). Nice/touching character interactions at the fallen arm by the way. Then I got disappointed in Mechonis (nice music in the first dungeon, nice strategic story boss and I liked finding the hidden location... but Mechonis was mostly a chore, Agniratha was my biggest disappointment because it was yet again another empty dungeon... and I wanted another city with people damnit *I loved the NPC social system*).

Spoiler:

still happened to be the most layered/interesting antagonist and I liked the final fight against him (pretty impressive since he was

Spoiler:

). Then, there were the best cutscenes of the game with

Spoiler:

. The rest up until the ending (the ending included) just disappointed me. Xenoblade was fine as a fantasy game and that would have been cool for Takahashi to try a different genre with different themes. But nope, he had to poorly rip off the old Xeno games at the last moment.

At least, it's way better than its prototype Soma Bringer, all my wrath and major disappointment fell on that tedious, boring and repetitive game lol (I'm not JUST talking about the storyline, imagine Xenoblade with more boring empty maps and only 12 poor fetch sidequests, a single playable and customizable character *you choose which character you want to control at the beginning, the problem being that it doesn't affect the way the plot is presented to you in any way... kinda pointless* and doing the same exact thing every chapter *kinda like the Gates part in Xenogears, except it's the entire game*... yeah, THAT bad). Even Mitsuda's music was forgettable, I mean geez.

It doesn't mean we can't enjoy Xenoblade at all. It is a pretty enjoyable jRPG and probably the best of this generation (which is not very difficult to achieve to be honest, but even if the game had solid competition, it would stand up okay I guess, it would not attract all the praise like it did maybe but it would still be enjoyed as a very nice jRPG, like Dragon Quest 8 was).

Also, if you happen to consider Xenotensei as "the voice" of the Xenosaga/gears fandom, then maybe you should stop paying too much attention to it (except for the cool and informative essays about Gears and Saga). Xenotensei's admin/author isn't much of a gamer and certainly isn't representative of every Xenogears and Saga fans. A.C. belongs, shall we say, to an extreme end of the Xenogears/Saga fandom spectrum. Not that I don't agree with his view on Xenoblade's plot though but I personally am able to enjoy good GAMES even if their stories are average (that would be Xenoblade for me) or mediocre. Video games aren't a storytelling medium first and foremost... that's why we can ignore average or bad stories when games are fun.

Just wanted to point out that Rin's been with the series since Gears and is about as old as I am. Also moving this very negative topic that I should not have started into the general gaming section. Not everyone needs to agree on everything all the time, but this thread no longer belongs in a section meant for folks who enjoy a thing. My apologies for my lack of foresight on this matter.

katimus_prime wrote:Just wanted to point out that Rin's been with the series since Gears and is about as old as I am.  Also moving this very negative topic that I should not have started into the general gaming section. Not everyone needs to agree on everything all the time, but this thread no longer belongs in a section meant for folks who enjoy a thing. My apologies for my lack of foresight on this matter.

Ah, sorry. I didn't realize about Rin. I began to read "I made an account for this post" and "us Xenoblade fans aren't all like this/think Xenogears/Saga were crap", thought it was a Xenoblade newbie and didn't read the rest of the post correctly (I was probably tired). Of course, I know who Rin is. My sincere apologies, Rin.

I still stand on what I said about Xenoblade (I just hope my last post didn't come of as agressive because I didn't really mean it, I was just trying to explain how I felt about the games and the stuff I witnessed from the fandoms). It's a great but "standard" jRPG (in term of story... gameplay wise, it's an improved FF12 with western inspirations and some stuff to correct/improve upon for X *better I.A., sidequests...*), some of its fandom hate Xenogears/Saga, some other never played Gears/Saga, some like (to different degree) Xenoblade and are old fans. But judging by Xenoblade's "popularity", I think there are more newbies than oldies in its fandom overall (europeans for example, I'm probably one of the rare old Xeno european fans, because Xenogears, Xenosaga 1 and 3 were never released over here). I doubt that what the majority desire from future Takahashi's games is an engrossing and meaty plot/characters. What people want is an improvement in term of gameplay/exploration or/and a sequel to Blade.

Well, like I said... I don't have any problem with people who enjoy Xenoblade. I enjoy/ed Xenoblade despite the stuff that disappointed/bored me. It's just the Gears/Saga haters that make me sad and wish Xenogears/Saga were remade so they would get the positive attention they deserve. For the record, I get a bit annoyed when any Xeno game is bashed (even Xenoblade which is objectively a good game and Takahashi's first big project that didn't suffer like the past ones... and damnit, I support *at least in my thoughts, financially, that's another story* Monolith being successful even if they go directions that don't interest me anymore *we'll see with X*).

I see I didn't write anything here.
It's true that XS and XG are alike, it's true that Xenoblade isn't like those two, but... Hmm I think better will fit this line: Xenogears story was the best in it's time, Xenosaga's was best in ps2 times (at last for me) and Xenoblade was the best from last years games, every Xeno was amazing at their time. Saga and Gears are amazing but you can say that they wasn't perfect too. XG has nightmare gameplay and cuts on 2nd cd, Xenosaga has cuts, change of director and many unperfect things that was fixed or not.

I can say that at last Xenoblade is finished, aside from gigants race it wasn't cut so much. Whole story is complete.
Gameplay wasn't bad too, I'm happy with it, it wasn't something like Tales of, half turn-half action, it haven't annoying bugs like FF XII has (lost turn before you get to monster, you are screw if you fight flying monster and no shooting character in party). I can say it was fun, only this fun for me was KH 2 system.
I can't compare this game gameplay to one of Saga or Gears since it's different type. I can say that I love all turn based gameplays, I grew on them (Heroes 3, Might and magic was my first games and they was turn based).
Every Xenosaga gameplay type was amazing one and perfect. Ep1 and Ep2 has amazing slot machine I love, Ep3 was fast, maybe too fast, and has amazing special attacks.

I can write whole essays what is amazing and bad in every story, but I will write this. Saga and Gears has amazing lines. What's said in those game breath taking, some scenes are write so good that you need to stop and think about them more to see how deep are they. When you read Perfect Works for Gears and Perfect Guide for Saga your amazing it's only deeper. I played lately in Xenosaga 3 and I was thinking "How amazing are all those things connected and how beautiful said".

Xenoblade is different, it's more fantasy story, not so big so it couldn't be build like those two. Still I think Melia and 2nd half of game is amazing done too. Only "arc" I didn't like it was Sharla one. And Riki wasn't bad, CHu-Chu destroyed a lot in Xenogears.
We think about Bionis as good one too and we have nice surprise. It's best parts of story too.

What draw new fans into Xenoblade is what I said before, complete of story. They don't need to search for answers in other games or books to know story in fully.
I was playing Xenosaga with friend and I don't know if he would be so interested into it if I didn't trow into him explain over somethings, and put some parts in question, or said it will be important later.
Beginning of Saga and Gears are hard to get through them. Best parts are mostly explain in end of game.

I look forward "X" myself. It wont be Saga or Gears, I'm sure of it, but it will be for sure best game for new generation I knew it. Maybe FF XV will be nice too, I give him a chance... But I think  "X" will beat it anyway .

kare_reiko wrote:I see I didn't write anything here.
And Riki wasn't bad, CHu-Chu destroyed a lot in Xenogears.

That's a bit extreme lol. Yeah, Chu-Chu was bad and her role should have been reduced (litterally too). But she didn't destroy a lot of scenes from Xenogears. Only 2, by memory. Still bad.
Riki was great. One of my favorite "recent" mascot character with Teddie from P4. I don't understand the hate he gets. He's better than some human characters I won't name. And his design is cute.

kare_reiko wrote:We think about Bionis as good one too and we have nice surprise. It's best parts of story too.

I think Mechonis may have the best story part, actually. The Bionis part is more fun in term of exploration (it's prettier to look at too).

kare_reiko wrote:What draw new fans into Xenoblade is what I said before, complete of story. They don't need to search for answers in other games or books to know story in fully.

I don't think that's the main draw. The main draw is hours and hours of gameplay and exploration in an open world (something everyone was missing in recent jRPGs, it helped). The story being complete and easy to grasp is only a nice bonus I think (except maybe for people who didn't like the old story heavy style and most of the old fans who are happy Takahashi managed a complete big game without problems). I can bet you most gamers would have the time of their gaming lives playing a really meaty game with a poor story or no story at all (I actually do when I play Valkyrie Profile 2, dat gameplay  :cool2: ). The reason Xenosaga (and Gears) can be hard on some gamers is because they're mainly about the story. So, either the story sucks you in and you're up for a fantastic journey or it doesn't and you stop playing. That's what the wank about FF13 was all about come to think about it... and why the sequel was enjoyed more (or disliked less, choose your pick) despite actually worsening the storyline. FF13 was just story. FF13-2 had towns, a pokemon system and more games. I'm not comparing Xeno and FF13 quality wise... but the fan reactions and styles (linear to "more gamey") seem similar, that's all.