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    Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

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    samarishim

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    Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu May 21, 2015 2:54 pm

    1. What is the difference between the nanomachine composition in Emerelda and KOS-MOS?
    2. Is there an explanation in both Gears/Saga for how people are Anima/Animus resonant, and why Anima resonants speed up the failsafe's function?
    3. What did the followers of Mary likely believe in and why were they against Wilhelm?
    4. Does KOS-MOS's mock personality count as a personality, similar to Commander Data? What about T-elos's?
    5. Did chaos pass on the power of Anima to Abel at Ep III's end?
    6. If chaos did do the above then what are the physical incarnations of Anima/us supposed to do without their power, or in chaos's case most of it?
    7. Perfect Guide makes mention of // Lower Domains, akin to // universes, does the collapse of a single Lower Domain spell doom for the entire Upper Domain?
    8. If U-DO were to observe what happened in Shulk's universe what would it see?
    9. The phenotype of silver hair and dark skin seems to symbolize mystery, why do you think it's used often?
    10. Why does Takahashi like to make Earth lost?
    11. What do you think of the shift from human centered to alien centered narratives?
    12. What happened to Mary's body during T-elos's construction?
    13. Instead of a retelling of PW Ep 1 could XCX be a telling of the 3rd arc of Saga?
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    Yikari

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Fri May 22, 2015 12:02 pm

    I'm not sure I'll be able to directly quote canon on any of the points you've listed, so everything you'll read below is either personal interpretation or speculation on my part. If that's fine with you, then let's get started!

    XXX

    1). I don't remember any of KOS-MOS' capabilities described as being possible explicitly through nanomachines. Or even just being mentioned as one of her components, for that matter.

    Seeing as how she is supposed to be made with the best techology Wilhelm was able / saw fit to make available for the Vector divisions responsible for the project, Joachim's breakthroughs in practical application of nanomachines that were made very recently (relatively speaking) might've found a place in KOS-MOS somewhere, yes. There is also the fact that she is able to make use of the exact same items to restore lost hp all other characters do, which, according to Jin's comments and canon explanation for Mary (the Godwin one) prancing around after getting shot in the guts earlier that day, might just be full of the things. (Unless gameplay and story segregation is in effect there as well, like in the case of Shion suddenly forgetting how to kill things with magic left and right as soon as interactive combat is over, of course.)

    But that's about it, unless I'm forgetting something. All the stuff with pulling guns, maces, scythes, drills and other assorted replacement limbs out of thin air is supposed to be strictly teleportation via UMN mass transfer wizardry. Gilbert effect, Dinah's unparalleled hyperspace capability and catching remains of (the other) Mary's mind out of the collective subconscious sufficiently enough to be able to make use of her unique wizardry and be liable to emotional manipulation via threatening Shion's wellbeing enough to be coerced into using said wizardry the way Wilhelm wants to is basically the same, just on a much more advanced level.

    With that in mind, I'd tenatively assume that nanomachines, if present in KOS-MOS at all, are utilitarian in function. While Emeralda's... everything (besides maybe whatever it is that makes her mental faculties remain intact after full-body transformations) is, apparently, made out of them, to the point that she is referred to as a 'nanomachine colony'. I'd say that comparing their construction to the differences between the various T models in the Terminator movies would not be out of place.

    XXX

    4). What is 'mock personality' exactly? I don't think I've ever seen an actual explanation either in the games' proper or in the side materials I've read.

    From characters' reactions during MOMO's dive in Ep. II and the general impression I've got from KOS-MOS' own dialogue, I'd say that 'mock personality' is a system of software and hardware measures (realians could be argued to be cyborgs in all but name, I think) designed to make someone appear to employ human body language and undergo emotional reactions without actually doing so to help with the Uncanny Valley problem.

    I guess it could be that 100-type realians (that aren't MOMO) have all their little personal quirks and mannerisms because of the factory presets they came with instead of how it happens naturally, but I find it doubtful that all those confused, scared children Shion helped to go through medical check ups in the opening stage of Ep. I are actually all calm and collected inside their own minds and only display this wide array of idiosyncrasies deliberately for the benefit of the others around them.

    (Or at least, I don't believe so. Could make for interesting fanfic material though.)

    In case of KOS-MOS in particular, the technobabble during the intro of Ep. I and in regards to Gilbert effect makes me think that the way it works requires a sufficiently human-like mind to function. Of which human emotions are an extremely important part. I'm really not sure how one could have a human perspective without going through the inherent emotional roller-coaster as well. And it's not like the Vector employees wouldn't know about that.

    There is also that short scene during the big dive in Ep.I with a visage of KOS-MOS being haphazardly bound to a slab of rock that is apparently the one we see in Ep. III near where Mary's remains were buried. In my opinion, it is very open to personal interpretations.

    (For example, it could be said that the AI that's in there somewhere doesn't feel particularly comfortable being restrained inside its own body all the damn time with completely out-of-context memories of some person it never met for company. Or it could be said that Mary that was supposed to be caught out of the collective subconscious was there from the start, forced out of non-existence by people too obsessed with her in-born powers into a position of a helpless observer inside some killbot's body.)

    Either way, it appears that my earlier assumption about 'mock personality' is wrong. Or maybe it's one of those things that characters believe and/or are led to believe in-universe but is not actually true. Other possible definitions that come to my mind - 'human-made personality' and 'temporary personality' respectively - don't seem to fit the context.

    T-elos doesn't really have enough canon screentime for me to even begin to guess, IMHO. She is shown to be smug, angry, resentful and (maybe) unnecessary brutal, but that's about it. There is supposedly an apperance on her part in one of the megacrossover SRW-like games, but...

    I'd say that her powerset makes a human-like mind a prerequisite as well (even if maybe in a different way than KOS-MOS) and I don't see any reason for Kevin to instruct her to behave the way she did if the intention was just to further mindscrew Shion on some level.

    I have no idea otherwise.

    XXX

    9). I don't really have the knowledge base to say with any certainty, but I'd assume it has something to do with the established practices of visual design (like what color goes best with what, for example, with detailed graphs on the subject and such) and unspoken implications it makes use of (like how the shape of the eyes of a character is used to relay certain things about their personality) as it pertains to the production of Japan's pop-culture for the last several decades. And/or anime space dark elves.

    It is entirely possible that a bunch of things in Xeno goes over my head simply because I lack the required horizons to catch it. But, considering how games, movies and such are usually advertised and sold, I'd say that visual design and/or marketology had more say in that than anything else.

    XXX

    11). What do you mean? The main characters in the recent installments are still humans (or at least behave in a similar enough way that they might as well be), right?

    Or do you mean the Xenosaga's explicit statement that 'there is only humanity and U-DO' in the side materials? With humanity's collective subconscious apparently being a vital component of the universe humans live in?

    While a potentially fun premise to play with, I personally prefer the 'if humanity were to disappear, the universe wouldn't notice' kind of settings. Allows to explore acute loneliness and other such themes better, IMHO ('a person feels most alone in a crowd' and all that jazz).

    XXX

    12). From what I understand, apparently there was enough DNA left in the coffin to make a clone and use the process for making realians (mucking about with the genes, carefully guiding the development of the organism akin to the designer babies practice used for people like Yuriev and festooning the thing with cybernetics at certain stages of development, if I remember right). No word on where the original remains went.

    Or at least, that's what I think. The game does not exactly go into much detail on the subject.

    I wouldn't be surprised if all the effort that went into developing and producing realians was started by Wilhelm to work out the know-how necessary to make this procedure possible in the first place. All According to Plan (tm). But that's just my headcanon.

    XXX

    Hm, looks like I wasn't able to come up with something to say about even a half of the list. My bad. Embarassed

    samarishim

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Fri May 22, 2015 2:52 pm

    Thank you for responding.

    1. So how does KOS-MOS's hands morph into weapons in (at least) Ep 1?

    4 The phrase mock personality is mentioned under question 24 What is the Difference Between KOS-MOS and T-elos? under KOS-MOS and T-elos, in the Ep III Perfect Guide quote "KOS-MOS did not have a specific "self", and was only given a mock-personality that had been programmed. The same is true for T-elos: although an emotional attitude was seen, this was also something like a Realian's artificial consciousness, and there was little difference from KOS-MOS's."

    From Ep 1 "A predetermined set of emotions has been hard-coded into my emotion module to better facilitate interactions with humans. In order to better facilitate a relationship with you - Shion Uzuki -. I will emit an expression such as sadness, only when that response is deemed necessary. Emo module of my prog has determined that this is not necessary at this time. "
    Your guess is on the fight track.

    11 Your guess is part of what I meant. Humans went from being the only species in Gears/Saga, whose CU is a fundamental part of the universe, to either being replaced with similar beings in Xenoblade, to not being the only species around in XCX thus diminishing their importance. I think Gears/Saga was like Joss Whedon's Firefly in that way being able to offer a view on the human condition not through contrast/comparison via alien species but reflection.

    12. Hm outfitting a clone of the body with cybernetics, I thought it would be Wilhelm forcibly reaniminating her corpse or using skin grafts on a metal endoskeleton similar to how Cameron from Terminator's Sarah Connor Chronicles was made from Alison Young.
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    RadicalDreamer

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by RadicalDreamer on Fri May 22, 2015 3:04 pm

    @samarishim wrote:1. What is the difference between the nanomachine composition in Emerelda and KOS-MOS?

    It's been a while since I immersed myself into the Saga verse in particular. But I always thought that Emeralda was more akin to a realian than a robot like KOS-MOS. Emeralda, like realians, is a pretty advanced entity... while KOS-MOS is old school robotic (that's how KOS-MOS is more or less described in the game, if my memories are correct).

    In fact, even in the narrative, Emeralda seems to share similitaries with MOMO (both were created in a tube by a scientist who couldn't have/lost his own child, Krelian seeks Emeralda to improve the M Plan while MOMO is kidnapped/hijacked for the Y-Data inside her... then both characters are left to the party with remaining daddy issues to solve).

    That said, Emeralda is slightly different than your average realian... since she can morph into anything she wants. Probably due to the fact that she's a nanomachine colony. She could separate herself into several bodies and control each one of them all at once if she wanted (which reminds me of sci-fi horror scenarios lol).

    @samarishim wrote:5. Did chaos pass on the power of Anima to Abel at Ep III's end?


    Based on my memories and how I chose to interpret the ending... I think that chaos did the same thing Mary did with Nephilim. But with Abel. So yeah, he probably gave him his powers... and made his body grow up too (which we didn't see). I actually used to think that Mary's conciousness transfered to Nephilim, not just her powers. But then, chaos speaks to a broken KOS-MOS in the credits so... dunno what happened to all those characters exactly. Maybe Yeshua went into Abel and only chaos was left (but then, I don't remember if chaos and Yeshua can be considered similar to the Mary/KOS-MOS situation... as chaos isn't a robot).
    It's all very unclear, imo (and again, it's been a while since I dove into Xenosaga).

    @samarishim wrote:8. If U-DO were to observe what happened in Shulk's universe what would it see?

    Spoiler:
    The Sims gone wrong ? Perhaps. That's how the plot of XB came across to me : two scientists gets sucked into their futuristic computer simulation after destroying the real world (that would be the lower domain in Xenosaga... I think... though the games aren't related at all, I'm just drawing a comparaison) and become the gods of their own fictional universe thanks to "the game's A.I". I assume Shulk and co recreated/restored Earth. Does it mean the people of Earth were restored as well ? Or is it just the people of Klaus and Meneyth's fantasy simulation who get to repopulate Earth ?

    @samarishim wrote:10. Why does Takahashi like to make Earth lost?
     
    Maybe to avoid creating a game that would take place on Earth (too restrictive for him perhaps)... while still working with humanity and real world references. Otherwise, Takahashi could have gone the Final Fantasy road all along... with entirely made up universes (save for The Spirit Within and
    Spoiler:
    FF13 thanks to Lightning Returns... ugh
    ). But I guess he likes sci-fi too much to do this. I mean, look at Xenoblade itself (I honestly would have prefered
    Spoiler:
    the world to be purely made up fantasy to be honest, instead of showing you Earth at the end ... and destroying the world you spent your time exploring as a result
    ).
    Anyway, it's not like it's a Takahashi thing only. It's a popular trope in science fiction.

    @samarishim wrote:11. What do you think of the shift from human centered to alien centered narratives?


    Well, I'm a big sci-fi nerd and aliens are interesting to develop. Humanity is yearning to find life out there (or fearing alien invasion). And I find it honestly weird that aliens didn't pop up sooner in the Xeno games (I guess Xenogears' chu-chus can count, as well as the fauna of the planet). Especially Xenosaga that is a space opera (maybe there is an explanation in the game I don't remember... or maybe Takahashi just assumed human/animal life only existed on Earth and humanity just colonized space without encountering any intelligent aliens... there has been sci-fi novels with the idea we're alone in the universe and for now, it's as possible as the idea we're not alone... I just find it weird coming from Takahashi who grew up loving Star Wars and Star Trek). Besides, narratives about aliens can work similarly as human centered narratives. Especially when it comes to racism.

    As long as human characters aren't sidelined/underdevelopped as a result, I'm okay with this (what I'm reading about XBX isn't filling me with confidence to be honest... I hear criticisms all over the place about the plot and the characters *but then again, the structure of this game is so different compared to your typical jRPG that maybe people are experiencing XBX the wrong way... or Monolith just didn't nail their first approach of open world design... I tend to think it's both*).

    @samarishim wrote:13. Instead of a retelling of PW Ep 1 could XCX be a telling of the 3rd arc of Saga?

    Dunno. XBX's premise seems to take a lot from Xenogears Episode 2 actually (just replace Deus with aliens crashing the ship, keep humans alive after the crash and replace the heavy Bible/genesis atmosphere for something more modern/military *with pop/rap music*).

    The only thing that reminds me of Xenosaga is this :
    - Xenoblade X's intro :

    - Xenosaga 3's ending :

    It's upside down but it still reminded me of Xenosaga's ending shot. And I think it's probably a coincidence.
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    katimus_prime
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Fri May 22, 2015 5:58 pm

    Heyo! I don't think a lot of these have canon answers, but like everyone else, I'm willing to share my interpretations!

    1. What is the difference between the nanomachine composition in Emerelda and KOS-MOS?
    As far as I knew, Emeralda was a nanomachine colony, and therefore assuming a physical form just to be able to relate to the other human characters. KOS-MOS is made up of parts - you can observe that from the end of XS3 and her fight scenes with T-Elos. There are plans for her form that are solid, and pieces of her that break apart when damaged. If KOS-MOS were a nanomachine colony, this would not be the case. I know her weapons are given to her via the UMN, so I think wherever her weapons might be, there might also be nanomachines to augment the process, but they're both very different things in my mind.

    2. Is there an explanation in both Gears/Saga for how people are Anima/Animus resonant, and why Anima resonants speed up the failsafe's function?
    I am not as up on Xenosaga lore as I am on Xenogears lore. The Anima/Animus in Xenogears sprung up around the time it was expected to pull the important parts of Deus together. Looking in the PW book at Deus' early last boss designs, it looked much more like the last boss of XSIII, with parts of all relevant Omnigears.

    3. What did the followers of Mary likely believe in and why were they against Wilhelm?
    I don't have a thing for this. ^^; Sorry.

    4. Does KOS-MOS's mock personality count as a personality, similar to Commander Data? What about T-elos's?
    I believe KOS-MOS' personality to be very much like Data's, come to think of it. T-elos, I have no idea. I think Kevin is a jerk and pre-programmed her with something sassy because he's a jerk.

    5. Did chaos pass on the power of Anima to Abel at Ep III's end?
    Maybe? I'd have to watch the end of XSIII again to really say. Xenogears Abel gained his power when he touched the Zohar Modifier, which then produced the image of Elly. XS doesn't match up with this at all.

    I'll have to finish this later!


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    samarishim

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Fri May 22, 2015 6:05 pm

    1. Still doesn't explain how/why KOS-MOS sometimes changes the shape of her forearms to form weapons.

    8. I believe that Shulk's universe simply replaced the old one until it's possible restoration. Unless say something like Anima activated and deleted the Lower Domain, U-DO would still be able to perceive a normal flow of time in that Lower Domain.

    13. The reason I thought XCX could be the 3rd arc was I perceived it's emotional core to be one of anger/hate specifically that of humans towards aliens, and the aliens towards humankind. Although with new info available that's probably not the entire case.

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Sat May 23, 2015 5:40 pm

    14 Was it ever confirmed that Yeshua lost his physical existence in the past? I saw someone say that the tomb behind Mary’s was his.
    15 Is the reason the failsafe can also accelerate the situation which leads to it being deployed just because that’s how things are?
    16 If the personification of Anima/Animus can choose when/where/how they’re manifested could they do so again, or are they now subject to the same reincarnation everyone else is after their initial descent to the Lower Domain?
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    Yikari

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Sun May 24, 2015 5:55 pm

    @samarishim wrote:
    1. So how does KOS-MOS's hands morph into weapons in (at least) Ep 1?

    I believe the implied canon answer to that is 'mass transfer through UMN'.

    If I remember right, there is a database entry on Xenosaga's space fleets making use of 'motherships' for refueling and rearming of smaller ships wholesale in real time via sending them required energy, fuel and munitions through some kind of energy field as long as they remain close enough, thus freeing up mass and space on said ships to be used for something else. The main technobabble term is 'condenser', I think.

    This setup gets mentioned in the intro stories released earlier this year for the most recent Xeno game and seems to be the retroactive explanation for Xenogears' mecha drawing power from the Wave Existence to function. There is no mention of which ships are which in the most cutscenes with space fleet action in Xenosaga and the only type of ship specifically said to make use of these are non-super mecha, with other types supposedly existing off-screen.

    (I'm not sure about the first two games, but in Ep. III mecha - both of super and normal variety - actually teleport their missiles in during gameplay combat animations instead of carrying them around in racks strapped to their hulls or some such. The section it is best seen in is a couple of enemy encounters while fighting on foot aboard the Durandal.)

    There is, however, a mention of the KOS-MOS body we see for the most of Ep. I having insufficient operation time when outside of such a field, implying she can get the energy and/or whatever else to needed to function that way as well.

    Considering that, I assume that teleporting in and out required body parts as well as guns is a plausible leap from there. The main no-no of mass transfer - no organic materials - is not an issue for KOS-MOS, after all.

    (I am now thinking of a yonkoma depicting KOS-MOS' teleporting limbs coming out like they marinated with Cthulhu for some time because someone decided to put genuine leather in there somewhere.)

    @samarishim wrote:
    4 The phrase mock personality is mentioned under question 24 What is the Difference Between KOS-MOS and T-elos? under KOS-MOS and T-elos, in the Ep III Perfect Guide quote "KOS-MOS did not have a specific "self", and was only given a mock-personality that had been programmed. The same is true for T-elos: although an emotional attitude was seen, this was also something like a Realian's artificial consciousness, and there was little difference from KOS-MOS's."

    From Ep 1 "A predetermined set of emotions has been hard-coded into my emotion module to better facilitate interactions with humans. In order to better facilitate a relationship with you - Shion Uzuki -. I will emit an expression such as sadness, only when that response is deemed necessary.  Emo module of my prog has determined that this is not necessary at this time."

    Makes it all the more suspect, IMHO.

    I mean, there is the (what very much appears to be, at least) romantic relationship between Luis and Febronia first hinted in a sneak peak into a flashback Luis gets after being shot dead waaaay at the beginning and then extrapolated upon in Ep. III. One of the realians stationed on Woglinde asking Shion about what really looks like a crush. MOMO getting really frantic at the mention of her self being turned off, even if only temporarily.

    Realians seen in the hospital Shion's mother is placed during Ep. III in are... suspect even more than any information shown during a dive, considering the nature of what's happening; still, since the whole setup was meant to fool Shion into believing it was not a setup, realian behaviour would have to conform to what she observed of actual realians. I would say there is fear there, even if subdued.

    Was all that simply a show performed by said realians for the benefit of the regular humans because something their heads decided that was how they were supposed to act to appear human?

    What about the connection 100-type and special cases like Canaan (specifically, the observation thing he was unknowingly doing) use to relay information between each other? Doesn't it work only because of them having a collective subconscious as well? But Ep. III side materials directly state that there is no non-human subconcious out there (besides maybe U-DO)? In that case, wouldn't belonging to the collective human subconcious require having human emotions?

    (Or maybe not, communication terminals and hyperspace travel hardware are not mentioned to all have human brains in a jar somewhere in them, after all.)

    KOS-MOS herself... Besides her apparently having a copy of a human brain's neural structure (which she may or may not use outside of Gilbert effect and fishing out Mary's mental remains) there is the whole of Ep. II to consider.

    For all that she stands there doing nothing for more than 95% of the screen time, what KOS-MOS does when the screenplay does have her do something, it is often left vague and unexplained.

    For example, there is a visible (however subdued) reaction to Ziggy commenting on minds deteriorating if left alive for too long during the MOMO dive. Yet there is no shining blue eyes and different speech pattern to let the audience know the other mind that's in there is the one currently in control. There is no mention of KOS-MOS deciding this statement on Ziggy's part is indicative of suicidal tendencies too strong to ignore and deciding to keep a closer eye on him, so to speak. There is no reason that I can see for her to mimic paying more attention to the conversation than before either. What are we even supposed to take out of that, especially with the canon explanation of "red eyes? not a person" in mind?

    There is also a possiblity of KOS-MOS developing a personality even if she didn't have one at the beginning if allowed to operate long enough. If there is an AI in there that can make its own decisions and learn from them, wouldn't it develop things like personal preferences and such over time? It may not be recognizably human, but wouldn't that still be a mind?

    Also, we need to decide if KOS-MOS can lie. She certainly doesn't have a problem with not saying things to people or disobeying direct orders if she decides she has a strong enough reason to.

    Or maybe I'm overthinking things. Still, taking 'mock personality' as any other way but 'human-made' doesn't feel quite right to me, given all the times the actual games seem to say otherwise.

    I really don't want to point at things and say 'this is a self-contradicting mess, headcanon it all away', but what I've seen of Ep. III sidebook translations makes me want to do just that. There is no entry in there that made things more clear for me instead of less.

    @samarishim wrote:
    12. Hm outfitting a clone of the body with cybernetics, I thought it would be Wilhelm forcibly reaniminating her corpse or using skin grafts on a metal endoskeleton similar to how Cameron from Terminator's Sarah Connor Chronicles was made from Alison Young.

    With the supposed level of reality-warping present in Xenosaga, reanimating the corpse is not that implausible for Wilhelm.

    Let's see... there was a mention of non-living objects having an imprint in the astral plane (I used to just say 'Upper Number Domain', but there is an entry in that Ep. III book that made me believe that term is reserved for the universe U-DO is from and not where human collective subconcious resides, so...), despite not having a human mind because... I'm not sure why, to be honest.

    There is also a mention of that one boss super mecha that didn't get to be included in the actual game whose super weapon destroyed things in the corporeal layer of the world by striking at their astral imprint, thus forcing the object in the corporeal layer to conform to the change wrought.

    Would that kind of manipulation allow Wilhelm to reverse the corpse's condition? If human collective subconcious retains humans' memories for such a long time as to make Mary susceptible to being threatened with Shion's condition, wouldn't history of inanimate objects and changes they underwent be stored somewhere in there as well?

    That would make all the screwing around with KOS-MOS and T-elos kind of unnecessary though. Unless Mary returning to her actual body would somehow make her dangerously powerful for Wilhelm's taste (just in case coercion failed and he had to make her do what he wanted by force) or was undesirable for some other reason, I don't see why he would bother with non-complete reproductions if he had an option to do just that.

    I think there is a percentage stating an approximate volume of non-organic components T-elos has in her that precludes her squishy bits being only skin-deep (if you are interested in abiding by canon, at least). Umm... 80 to 20 in favour of the flesh? I can't remember off the top of my head, sorry.

    I kind of question the reason for any amount of organic components in the first place. On the other hand, if both Wilhelm and Kevin believed that KOS-MOS failed at fishing Mary out (that's the reason for T-elos' creation, from what I understand; T-elos was conceived pretty long ago though; was Kevin's arranged death the litmus test they've decided KOS-MOS has failed?), they could've chosen to increase the perceived likeliness - specifically, what would the person see in the mirror? If this process is supposed to work by deliberately triggering deja vu, then that sounds plausible, I think.

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Mon May 25, 2015 3:40 pm

    RadicalDreamer Yeshua and chaos are names to refer to the same being at different times (the real # domain "physical" incarnation of Anima), you seem to be improperly taking Yeshua to mean the power of Anima which was possibly transferred.  

    As to what happened to them It's likely Abel/Nephilim will use their newly gained powers to help start a new civilization on Lost Jerusalem. KOS-MOS is still around physically/mentally and chaos mentally still exists because the CU wants them too, just wish I knew what the CU want them to do without their powers.

    Yikari 1. Dinah how is its' un// operation based on UMN m t-fer wizardry, if its’ feats don’t require it to interact with the UMN at all?

    2 How did Mary’s scattered consciousness manage to be caught besides the “explanation” of blackboxes and UMN use?

    3. Hilbert effect makes me think that the way it works requires a sufficiently human-like mind to function, would you mind quoting the source that makes you think this.  

    b I'd say that T-elos's powerset (could affect the material domain by directly interfering through the UMN. similar to a Testament) makes a human-like mind a prerequisite as well, why do you think this?

    c KOS-MOS having a copy of a human brain's neural structure, was this mentioned at Ep 1's start? Mary's not human but I suppose she's close enough to human for it to work out, at least for her will to be resurrected?  

    d If there is an AI in there that can make its own decisions and learn from them, wouldn't it develop things like personal preferences and such over time? It may not be recognizably human, but wouldn't that still be a mind? I agree with this.

    Also, we need to decide if KOS-MOS can lie. Why?

    4 I'm really not sure how one could have a human perspective without going through the inherent emotional roller-coaster as well.  Can someone be human without experiencing emotions? In that case, wouldn't belonging to the collective human subconcious require having human emotions? same question applies here.

    5 'human-made personality' and 'temporary personality' don't make sense to you, by temporary you mean the option of turning said personality on/off for at least the Realians?

    5b Still, taking 'mock personality' as any other way but 'human-made' doesn't feel quite right to me, given all the times the actual games seem to say otherwise.  Are you contradicting yourself here?

    6 Canaan and the 100-series

    Shared-Information System of Realians 100-series upload their individually collected information into a shared database, and they can download information from the shared database, as needed.
    This is something that formed, as a system, a situation as if they can access the CU at will.
    In this way, information can be retrieved precisely because it is being retained somewhere, similar to Mary's will?

    Canaan & Lactis If the rule on the dual-layer nature of existence is followed, then a realian consciousness, too, exists in the imaginary domain.
    Canaan was a special enhanced memory model realian belonging to Vector. He was manufactured, reused, and reformatted from the root system of Lactis, an early-model realian that functioned 100 years ago. Lactis's memories that should have been lost 100 years ago were restored in Canaan's body. Moreover, because the memories were restored while still preserving the present consciousness, the personalities of Lactis and Canaan continued to function comfortably at an integrated state.

    Realian Soul "Reincarnation" means the cycle where a consciousness, which had been absorbed into the Collective Unconsciousness, once again receives a real-domain vessel and forms a new individual consciousness. This recycling of consciousness is reincarnation; it is resurrection.
    A former consciousness had been resurrected in Canaan. However, it's not that he downloaded a past personality that existed in a realian database.
    A realian shared-database is a place of pure information sharing with no difference in personality because subjective elements are not brought into it.
    In Canaan's case, even though he was a realian, he had flesh that existed in the real domain and a consciousness that existed in the imaginary domain, which means that he revived as an individual that had been unified with the Collective Unconscious in the imaginary domain.
    Lactis's consciousness was absorbed into the Collected Unconscious, and although he lost the notion of individuality, his core was not lost, and he was recycled into Canaan.

    7 On Mary's body I think it was because he couldn't get to her body at first was the reason KOS-MOS was built.  T-elos was built soon after presumably gaining access to that body, to serve as the better/cleaner vessel for Mary's will because being in KOS-MOS could have changed her will to something not of their liking.  T-elos's body is over 80% living flesh.

    I suppose we'll never know if he used the literal material of the body or copied it.  T-elos is similar to Kahran Ramsus in a way if she was made from cloned material in that said cloned material would have the same powers as the original flesh donor.  With chaos sensing a similar presence when she first showed up makes the cloning thing suspect, because we don't know if clones can have the same presence as the original.  

    8 Mythical creatures such as fairies and the like, which were said to be existences of the imagination, are thought to have possibly been these Gnosis. What do you think of this statement?

    9 Disappearance Phenomenon caused by scattering of accelerating consciousnesses, different from the matter shifts that had occurred up to then.
    A "matter shift" is something that shifts a real-domain existence into the imaginary domain. As a result, things seem to have disappeared from the real number domain. However, because it is a phenomenon where things turn into Gnosis, they still exist in the imaginary domain without having disappeared. How do things disappear in the imaginary domain, does it mean subsumed by the CU?
    80% of the Galactic Federation's worlds disappeared what happened to those worlds that did so?


    Last edited by samarishim on Tue May 26, 2015 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : + info)
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Tue May 26, 2015 12:42 pm

    @samarishim wrote:
    Yikari 1. Dinah how is its' un// operation based on UMN m t-fer wizardry, if its’ feats don’t require it to interact with the UMN at all?

    A poor choice of words on my part, my bad. From what I understand, Dinah doesn't require the assistance of the existing man-made UMN infrastructure to perform a hyperspace jump, but it still uses the inherent properties of this incorporeal plane of human subconcious (the 'unus mundus' theory) to do it somehow, right?

    I am hesitant to attribute this feat to the Vessel of Anima it is outfitted with. If these things are containers of chaos' power, and his own signature power is erasing things from existence irreversibly, then... how does that work? And if the E.S units can make use of that power as simply a nearly limitless power source without this erasing thing bleeding over in everything it is used for, then why only Dinah can do this unassisted hyperspace jump thing? Shion and Allen could perform said jump without having KOS-MOS onboard, but she did have to be there for the combat capabilities to be utilized in full, didn't she?

    On the other hand, it didn't stop chaos from saving the party's bacon with a direct application of his powers in the ending of Ep. I. Was it an inventive use of this ultimate destruction ability to erase the heat (somehow) that threatened to kill everybody or something? Or maybe superpowered individuals can learn to do things outside of their 'specialty' with enough practice? Going incorporeal and back as needed seems like a shared ability between several characters, for example. And there is this 'Lemegeton' thing nobody aside from chaos could use in full that is supposedly a whole reality-alteration language, if side materials are to be believed.

    I'm afraid I'm floundering here.

    @samarishim wrote:
    2 How did Mary’s scattered consciousness manage to be caught besides the “explanation” of blackboxes and UMN use?

    I don't remember any kind of concrete explanation for that at all.

    There is this scene of KOS-MOS and Shion undergoing what appears to be a mutual flashback from the memories of two people long, long dead and then bam! The blue eyes are here to stay.

    Personally, I interpet it as Kevin, Wilhelm and co artificially engineering a situation similar enough to what late Mary and her unnamed lady friend went through - KOS-MOS and Shion looking like those dead people, the medallion Kevin gifted to Shion and Shion being in mortal danger where KOS-MOS could see and potentially do something about it seem to be the key parts of that - in order to trigger a reaction from the human collective subconscious (which, at least in Xenosaga, also contains all the dissolved human minds that didn't go gnosis and all the memories they carried) that would result in Mary's consciousness pulling back into one coherent mind inside KOS-MOS' body. Somehow.

    How the partial success was achieved before that (KOS-MOS did show the blue eyes and different behaviour for a brief time in Ep.I, after all) is unclear. I guess you could say that the sabotaged Archetype unit unexpectedly becoming docile when confronting Shion one-on-one and basically standing still while she lined up the shot during that flashback could be it, but thats about all I can think of besides 'Kevin did it'.

    @samarishim wrote:
    3. Hilbert effect makes me think that the way it works requires a sufficiently human-like mind to function, would you mind quoting the source that makes you think this.  

    Mostly Ep.I database and personal conjecture about things seen during the game. I'll try to reproduce the thought process that led me to this conclusion.

    First is the database entry on 'Penfield mapping' - one of the technobabble terms mentioned during the very beginning of the game. The direct quote would be:

    XXX
    A map of the brain which shows the distinct functional regions of the cerebral cortex.

    The in-game reference is to the digitized procedure which links Shion's cerebral regions to their respective regions in KOS-MOS.
    XXX

    I don't remember there being any further explanations on the topic, but given the second sentence of that entry, this, in my opinion, implies that KOS-MOS has a reproduction (since she is stated to have no organic parts anywhere) of (at least) a part of human brain's structure in there somewhere.

    ('The extensive outer layer of gray matter of the cerebral hemispheres, largely responsible for higher brain functions, including sensation, voluntary muscle movement, thought, reasoning, and memory,' if the dictionary that comes up on the first page of the google search is to be believed.)

    There is no mention of how that thing is used - it may be an auxillary system that KOS-MOS does not actually use to make decisions and only has it installed to allow her to connect to a human mind during an encephalon dive for all I know.

    However, combined with the fact that any and all observed cases of Gilbert effect being used in the games are performed by either an overly detailed humanoid machine (that has a copy of a human brain inside, for some reason or another) or realians (with the help of 'a 15m x 15m block resembling a supercomputer' that 'weighs over 10 tons' installed on the ship they are stationed on, in case of 100-series realians that are not MOMO), it brings a question to my mind.

    Why would anyone in the army (and/or fleet, however armed forces' organisation goes in there) consent to accepting aboard their ship a bunch of children clones whose only value outside of this one specific type of emergency is 'information management' and 'looking adorable'? That's a bunch of non-combatant civilian personnel whose well-being (and medical care / maintenance requiring trained professionals and equipment procured from Vector) is now on your neck (and that of your passenger/cargo capacity). That's also at least one more (however modified) human brain added to the equation where you'd really be better served by an automated system instead - the less your response time in an emergency depends on human factor, the better and more consistent results you are gonna get.

    Only possible in-universe explanation I can see is 'because it was deemed necessary'. Ergo, it was seen as a cost-effective enough method to provide Gilbert effect for armed forces in the field. Why? All those 'EPR radars', 'DSSS cameras' and other such measures that were shown in direct combat against gnosis threats don't require having a specially made realian on hand to function, yet this one does. What is it to Glibert effect that needs specifically a realian to work?

    There is no canon answer to that, as far as I am aware, but I think 'something only a (modified?) human can do' is a reasonable assumption.

    @samarishim wrote:
    b I'd say that T-elos's powerset (could affect the material domain by directly interfering through the UMN. similar to a Testament) makes a human-like mind a prerequisite as well, why do you think this, is her powerset all the things she does in battle?  she could affect the material domain by directly interfering through the UMN.

    All examples of interfering with things through imaginary numbers domain (I think I've been mixing up my terms, please correct me if I get something wrong) shown beyond hyperspace jumps and communications appear to require a person with sapience and sentience to happen.

    Be it Rubedo having to interface with Durandal in some way to make use of the ship's weaponry to the fullest, Godwin sisters using cybernetic implants and direct mind-to-mind connection to transfer information out of a damaged database posthaste, super mechs outfitted with Vessels of Anima or Zohar Emulators requiring to be piloted by people selected out of a narrow pool of individuals, active reality warping by testaments, Yuriev, URTV...

    A whole slew of things, most of them looking to be quite suited to be hoisted off to a gadget or a computer system of some sort. And yet they are not. Why?

    @samarishim wrote:
    c KOS-MOS having a copy of a human brain's neural structure, was this mentioned at Ep 1's start? Mary's not human but I suppose she's close enough to human for it to work out, at least for her will to be resurrected?

    Well, she certainly managed to die the way a human in Xenosaga is supposed to.  

    @samarishim wrote:
    Also, we need to decide if KOS-MOS can lie. Why?

    The quote you've mentioned with KOS-MOS replying to Shion in regards to shooting Luis, if I remember right. Can we take it at its face value?

    KOS-MOS has showed to be able to choose rather drastic courses of action if she decided it was necessary to safeguard Shion's life. Shion demonstrates an unhealthy obsession and psychological dependency towards KOS-MOS during more or less all of Xenosaga. Would KOS-MOS notice that? If so, what would she choose to do about it? Would ommiting facts or even outright stating something she knows to be false be something KOS-MOS would do?

    @samarishim wrote:
    4 I'm really not sure how one could have a human perspective without going through the inherent emotional roller-coaster as well.  Can someone be human without experiencing emotions? In that case, wouldn't belonging to the collective human subconcious require having human emotions? same question applies here.

    Why a human can't be a human without human emotions? (I'm sorry if I misunderstood the question, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

    Well, as far as my amateur understanding goes, things like fear and such are integral to the way a human mind works.

    How does, say, a child learn not to touch a boiling kettle lest they burn themselves? Very, very few people can take that kind of lesson to heart if they are just told so, even if they intellectually understood what was said no problem. Touching a boiling kettle for themselves even once (and getting burned while doing so), however, will likely cement this precaution for the rest of their lives in very short order. The memory of pain and the fear of further pain will ensure it. And that's how the learning from one's own mistakes method works.

    Same with every other emotion - it has developed in human minds for a reason.

    There is also the matter of the biochemical processes that govern our moods, all our perceptions and memories of these perceptions getting colored by them and thus affecting our judgement when we use them to make decisions and all that jazz.

    (I've probably just butchered it all horribly, but that's the basic reasons for me to think that.)

    @samarishim wrote:
    5 'human-made personality' and 'temporary personality' don't make sense to you, by temporary you mean the option of turning said personality on/off for at least the Realians?

    More like 'temporary until you develop your own'.

    It is hard to judge how old a character is supposed to look like at times, but realians that exhibited anything beyond politness often came off to me as behaving younger than their appearance suggested.

    That got me thinking. Do they undergo accelerated growth? Are they unconscious for their development before being dumped into the world? If so, how would realians fit in with regular humans?

    So that's the reason for me to think of that as a possible interpretation.

    @samarishim wrote:
    5b Still, taking 'mock personality' as any other way but 'human-made' doesn't feel quite right to me, given all the times the actual games seem to say otherwise.  Are you contradicting yourself here?

    Maybe? I'm not a native speaker and like to use overconvoluted sentences besides, so it's quite possible. Let me try to untangle that.

    Interpretations of the phrase 'mock personality' other than 'one made by humans', including the one canon seems to suggest and other possible meanings of the word 'mock' that I've seen being used (that also fit the context of the phrase), seem to not fit with the instances of the actual narrative apparently contradicts that statement made in the side materials, in my opinion.

    Does that make more sense?

    @samarishim wrote:
    In this way, information can be retrieved precisely because it is being retained somewhere, similar to Mary's will?

    Well, that's what I think is happening, yes. Although I'm not sure how anyone's 'core' could remain whole enough to be 'recycled' if the way death is described says that any and all self of a person is dissolved.

    So Shion, in my opinion at least, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the dead girl from Mary's memories beyond similar looks and her pendant. If people's minds' are formed out of this cosmic goop of memories of a bunch of former people, wouldn't she inherit a whole slew of different things from numerous dead people instead of this exactly one self that gets reborn again and again the way resurrection cycles are usually depicted?

    Canaan, being a realian, could conceivably get his brain and stuff actually replanted from his predecessor's body (and thus get the other person's memories the way KOS-MOS did), but Shion wouldn't get even that opportunity.

    @samarishim wrote:
    7 On Mary's body I think it was because he couldn't get to her body at first was the reason KOS-MOS was built.  T-elos was built soon after presumably gaining access to that body, to serve as the better/cleaner vessel for Mary's will because being in KOS-MOS could have changed her will to something not of their liking.

    But the first time we see 'T-elos' namedropped is way back in Ep.I during the section Rubedo is introduced in as a playable character. Sure, the picture is a part of an earlier concept art of KOS-MOS that was also printed in the side materials for Ep.I, but 'T-elos' is very much legible.

    http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/File:Telos1.png

    (I apparently completely fail at stealing other people's images via the IMG tag, so have a link instead.)

    Did Wilhelm and co. already have access to the coffin at that time?   

    @samarishim wrote:
    T-elos is similar to Kahran Ramsus in a way if she was made from cloned material in that said cloned material would have the same powers as the original flesh donor. With chaos sensing a similar presence when she first showed up makes the cloning thing suspect, because we don't know if clones can have the same presence as the original.

    I've always wondered if that means the Emperor is a Thing as well. Or if Ramsus was developed to mimic function, not form and doesn't actually look anything like him.  

    @samarishim wrote:
    8 Mythical creatures such as fairies and the like, which were said to be existences of the imagination, are thought to have possibly been these Gnosis. What do you think of this statement?

    You mean if what people perceived as poltergeists, mermaids, gremlins and such were actually manifestations or a side effect of Gnosis being nearby?

    I don't see why that couldn't happen. Nephilim is already functionally a ghost (although it's debatable if she died to get in the state she currently is in or not), so why not?

    I think that the common Gnosis forms getting assigned the names they did get is a military designation thing, though. G-type threat was supposed to be kept secret for quite awhile, yes? Only during the gap between Ep.II and III did the information get completely into the open access.

    @samarishim wrote:
    How do things disappear in the imaginary domain, does it mean subsumed by the CU?

    I really don't know.

    Supposedly, all contact with Ariadne - an example of this, if I understand correctly - was lost after U-TIC done goofed with the Zohar Emulator they were attempting to apply SCIENCE to there and then we see that Gnosis can somehow spread their gnosis-ness to things that aren't people as well, somehow. And start moving the planet about with them, for some reason.

    Seeing how mass transfer in hyperspace jumps, teleporting munitions and matter phase shifts like the stealth-in-space thing Song of Nephilim did, Shion's official explanation for not dying to the first explosion and that chunk of France floating around (nowhere nearby the corner of space Earth was supposed to be in either) are supposedly all a particular case of such a phenomenon but usually don't come out looking all gnosis-like, there is basically no established guideline to this kind of incidents.

    @samarishim wrote:
    80% of the Galactic Federation's worlds disappeared what happened to those worlds that did so?

    No official information. At all.

    My personal headcanon is that Xenosaga loves its Worf Barrages (if you'll forgive me for using tvtropes speak) way too much for its own good (exploding Old Miltia wholesale at the end of Ep.II for no reason when there were still unresolved things left there to explore in Ep. III is a prime example) and there would be no way for that sensor station to know that this was happening anyway beyond a simple 'we've lost contact', so I'd say that ~80% of Galactic Federation's worlds' UMN collapsed instead.

    That would mean hyperspace travel and communications going down for an indeterminable amount of time (thus economical breakdown, panic, war, colonies that are usually dependant on import for their food and/or other essentials left for dead, etc), potentially irrecoverable loss of databases that were stored in the imaginary numbers domain, a whole bunch of people that were in-transit in hyperspace and encephalon dives getting screwed in new and exciting ways (chances are, Nephilim would get lotsa new people to talk with out there in-between dimensions), worlds that were left untouched suddenly deciding they don't want to be in the Federation anymore, etc, etc.

    In other words, a scenario quite destructive enough to fit the needs of a civilization-wide collapse but still not quite destructive enough as 'those ~80% of the planets and all that was nearby them suddenly stopped existing'.

    Or, at least, that's what I think.

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Tue May 26, 2015 3:29 pm

    1. Dinah's abilities will likely never be explained.
    2. The partial success may have been partial due to the fact that it wasn't time for Mary to wake up, so she couldn't stay long.
    3 Thanks for outlining your thoughts on this. Are we trying to figure out if the capacity for deception makes KOS-MOS's standard OS sapient/sentient?
    4. I was trying to ask if someone could still be considered human if they did not feel emotions.  Sure they'd lack empathy but aren't they still human? Also it  seems that emotions drive people to not go back to the CU, lack of emotion wouldn't lead to a Gnosis issue for that particular individual. Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part.
    5. Hm, so temporary meaning the ephemeral blank slate personality that each Realian has a factory default before acquiring specific preferences and such? Being unconscious would count for naivety, but presumably there was a "need to know info" packet downloaded into their OS. Accelerated aging also seems likely. As for fitting in with humans one could start be reading the charter on Realian rights to see how that race relation fares.
    5b What does canon suggest mock personality means if it isn't using artificial as its' definition? In regards to the rest of your answer "seem to not fit with the instances of the actual narrative apparently contradicts that statement made in the side materials, in my opinion." Just to clarify you're saying that the narrative and lore don't agree in regards to the term "mock personality."
    6 I thought Shion was the reincarnation of the Maiden of Mary, which is part of the reason KOS-MOS's partial success occur, it's not just that Shion/Maiden look alike, it's that she has the same soul as her, and thus regarded as = to her past existence in KOS-MOS's/Mary's view. I wouldn't be surprised that the core of such an individual like the Maiden were "stored" differently than those of others, due to its' ability as an Animus resonant.
    As for Mary she can die like a human but she her will isn't treated like a normal human's, her will (As the incarnation of Animus) even scattered will remain until the CU no longer desires it, whole or not.  This likely leads to her will being an easy to revive.  Although we'll likely never know how T-elos's materials were gotten.
    9 Well Ariadne was affected like how you said above, 1 existence simultaneously in the 2 halves of the Lower Domain, affecting one affects the other.
    As for other things not turning into Gnosis the thing being put in imaginary space technically has to be human, except a planet gnosifying flies in the face of that unalterable fact, unless it was the fact that a plane would likely contain organic substances.
    I think what I was trying to ask was if something can dissappear from the Realm of Imaginary #'s once it's there. I apologize again for the lack of Clarity.
    Well that's a relief see Takahashi you don't have to kill off the majority of humanity/a sapient species with every game you make.
    11. What do you think when comparing the Sakura/MOMO, Mary Magdalene/KOS-MOS, Lactis/Canaan situations?
    12. What do you think the key on Lost Jurusalem that chaos spoke of is?
    13.  Cain was the original, Kahr Ramsus doesn' look like him because like the Thing he ate someone and assumed their identity.
    Have any thoughts for questions 14-6 mentioned a few days ago?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue May 26, 2015 7:49 pm

    Wow this thread got big. ^^; Unless I'm tagged personally, I'm not going to be able to keep up. I'm interested in where you're trying to go with these questions with this info, samarishim - are you writing an essay or fanfiction?

    6. If chaos did do the above then what are the physical incarnations of Anima/us supposed to do without their power, or in chaos's case most of it?
    Since I didn't have anything for the answer before, I don't feel qualified to answer. What I know and really think about chaos is that he reminds me of an arm of the Wave Existence. I think the way he's described in the game is that he's the power behind Jesus, which in effect makes him the Holy Spirit? (I am terrible on this subject.)

    7. Perfect Guide makes mention of // Lower Domains, akin to // universes, does the collapse of a single Lower Domain spell doom for the entire Upper Domain?
    I think the collapse of the Upper Domain would cause the doom for the Lower Domain, but I have no idea if that would work the other way around. If the lower domain is a less complex dimension, I wouldn't think it'd have the capacity to collapse something greater than it.

    8. If U-DO were to observe what happened in Shulk's universe what would it see?
    I actually kinda think Alvis is very much like U-DO and the Wave Existence, so what I see at the very top of Xenoblade is a sketch of an answer to the question: "What happened to Lost Jerusalem?" Xeno series stuff keeps indicating that Earth has been lost. Klaus certainly won at losing Earth in Xenoblade.

    9. The phenotype of silver hair and dark skin seems to symbolize mystery, why do you think it's used often?
    I think it seems to be connected to calm and collected personality types. I think it may have started with Billy Lee Black or Sigurd Harcourt in Xenogears and just populated forward. It's used as much as Jin/Citan/Dunban's dark hair and very old-timey Japanese phenotype. I think it's there to make us think the characters are more closely related.

    10. Why does Takahashi like to make Earth lost?
    IDK? I think it starts off a really interesting story. I also think he's been trying to finish a game since Xenogears that can't be Xenogears, so he starts off in the same way a lot?

    11. What do you think of the shift from human centered to alien centered narratives?
    I've always liked science fiction, so I'm excited for it! I love the Xeno metaseries, but I personally think space is too big for humanity to be alone in it. The Gnosis were even a reflection of humanity made into monsters, and the only real alien in Saga and Gears was the being from the Upper/Higher dimension.

    12. What happened to Mary's body during T-elos's construction?
    I imagine that if they really used Mary Magdalene's body to clone T-elos, they would have taken a small sample of the original and left the rest of it in tact, probably where they first found it (Rennes-le-Chateau)? The lady's been dead for over 6000 years at that point - I can't imagine that it'd be desecrated.

    13. Instead of a retelling of PW Ep 1 could XCX be a telling of the 3rd arc of Saga?
    I can see where that angle could be possible. I have no idea how true that is until I play XBX tho.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Wed May 27, 2015 10:15 am

    I wish to understand Takahashi's lore. Thank you for all the answers on this thread.
    For 7 chaos's very existence seems to suggest a yes. Seems that every Lower Domain has to keep it's possible destruction to itself to avoid harming the Upper Domain.
    The previous 14-6 are still awaiting answers.
    17. Besides Gnosticism and various philosophers, would you say Takahashi expounds on the same themes with all his works?
    18. Besides his themes what other things in common would make you say yes a work is by Takahashi.
    19. Which characters in the meta-series would you like to meet?
    20. Do you think Takahashi used enneagrams in XCX?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Wed May 27, 2015 12:51 pm

    @samarishim wrote:
    3 Thanks for outlining your thoughts on this. Are we trying to figure out if the capacity for deception makes KOS-MOS's standard OS sapient/sentient?

    I'm not sure. Honestly, I didn't think that far. More like tried to work out how a character would behave in a non-canon scenario while still retaining their 'feel' for the purposes of fanfiction.

    For example, in the scene where Elsa's crew is first introduced, captain Matthew calls KOS-MOS out on her bluff? That kind of thing, you know.

    @samarishim wrote:
    4. I was trying to ask if someone could still be considered human if they did not feel emotions.  Sure they'd lack empathy but aren't they still human? Also it  seems that emotions drive people to not go back to the CU, lack of emotion wouldn't lead to a Gnosis issue for that particular individual. Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part.

    Since there are cases like this IRL, they probably would. The question is, if you make a huge percentage of human population like that, what would happen to human society and collective unconscious (I've been using this term wrong for the last few pages, my bad)?

    @samarishim wrote:
    5. Hm, so temporary meaning the ephemeral blank slate personality that each Realian has a factory default before acquiring specific preferences and such? Being unconscious would count for naivety, but presumably there was a "need to know info" packet downloaded into their OS. Accelerated aging also seems likely. As for fitting in with humans one could start be reading the charter on Realian rights to see how that race relation fares.

    Well, since realians are still made with predetermined phenotype and augmentations for the job they are slated for and the nervous system override is still there, I'm not sure if things got any better.

    The database entry says that things are different outside of the military, but we don't really see any of that.

    (There are some pages in ODM that I've never seen a translation of that may be it, but...)

    @samarishim wrote:
    5b What does canon suggest mock personality means if it isn't using artificial as its' definition? In regards to the rest of your answer "seem to not fit with the instances of the actual narrative apparently contradicts that statement made in the side materials, in my opinion." Just to clarify you're saying that the narrative and lore don't agree in regards to the term "mock personality."

    Yes, that was what I am saying. This quote from the perfect guide

    XXX
    <>
    KOS-MOS, who had the role of vessel for Maria's consciousness, did not have a specific "self", and was only given a mock personality that had been programmed. The same is true for T-elos: although an emotional attitude was seen, this was also something like a Realian's artificial consciousness, and there was little difference from KOSMOS's.
    XXX

    you've mentioned above (a canon source) seems to imply KOS-MOS <=> T-elos <=> realians <=> no 'self' (whatever that means) <=> implication of not actually feeling things they appear to feel, as far as their minds' properties are concerned, if I read it right. Which kind of doesn't jive with the LuisxFebronia plotline (also a canon source).

    Or maybe I'm simply missing something. That's always a possibility.

    @samarishim wrote:
    6 I thought Shion was the reincarnation of the Maiden of Mary, which is part of the reason KOS-MOS's partial success occur, it's not just that Shion/Maiden look alike, it's that she has the same soul as her, and thus regarded as = to her past existence in KOS-MOS's/Mary's view. I wouldn't be surprised that the core of such an individual like the Maiden were "stored" differently than those of others, due to its' ability as an Animus resonant.
    As for Mary she can die like a human but she her will isn't treated like a normal human's, her will (As the incarnation of Animus) even scattered will remain until the CU no longer desires it, whole or not.  This likely leads to her will being an easy to revive.

    As good explanation as any, given the information the games provide.

    Just because I'm enamoured with CU being something like an amorphous incorporeal goop of dissolved memories doesn't mean everybody else should be too. Razz
     
    @samarishim wrote:
    I think what I was trying to ask was if something can dissappear from the Realm of Imaginary #'s once it's there.

    I assume that chaos making the gnosis disappear in his introductory scene and at the very end may just be it. Still no explanation, but at least we see it happen on-screen.

    @samarishim wrote:
    11. What do you think when comparing the Sakura/MOMO, Mary Magdalene/KOS-MOS, Lactis/Canaan situations?

    Some interesting stuff, although, considering the importance of these plotlines, not nearly enough screentime for everyone (besides maybe MOMO). I mean, if someone were to try to write a fanfic featuring them, there is basically nothing to push off of for most of them. Which I believe to be bad.

    I have to admit feeling disgruntled when I saw the Mary/KOS-MOS plotline big reveal. There is a really thought-provoking start since Ep. I begins and there is lot of barely explained stuff happening near the very end of the series... and basically nothing in between. It felt like it came out of nowhere.

    On a further contemplation, I was forced to admit that being used by the big bad to resurrect a person long dead on his terms is a better plotline than what most human-like robots get these days.

    I do think that Shion's feelings on KOS-MOS as she knew (or imagined) her effectively being dead are noticeably abscent though.

    @samarishim wrote:
    12. What do you think the key on Lost Jurusalem that chaos spoke of is?

    I assume it to be either an another unique reality-altering artefact or some detail about Earth's current condition that chaos thought could help.

    @samarishim wrote:
    13.  Cain was the original, Kahr Ramsus doesn' look like him because like the Thing he ate someone and assumed their identity.

    I mean, if Kahr as we know him is a Thing that stole a body for itself to ride about in, is Cain also a Thing?

    Or maybe not. Being someone's clone and/or being designed to replicate someone's abilities doesn't mean you have to look like them (or having the same amount of limbs, for that matter.)

    @samarishim wrote:
    Have any thoughts for questions 14-6 mentioned a few days ago?

    Nope, sorry.

    @samarishim wrote:
    18. Besides his themes what other things in common would make you say yes a work is by Takahashi.

    Mecha?

    @samarishim wrote:
    19. Which characters in the meta-series would you like to meet?

    Ziggy, Allen and MOMO seem to me like people that could be not that hard to get along with.

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Wed May 27, 2015 1:28 pm

    4 I think there would be less of an issue of the CU being destroyed because fewer people would work up the will/emotions to not go into the CU. The universe wouldn’t run the risk of being destroyed but human society might.
    How many times have you seen an entity in fiction similar to the CU?
    With chaos’s scene I’m just assuming that the wills that made up the Gnosis just went back to the CU.
    5 Realians seem like a new incarnation of RUR type robots, we never see other (physical) types of realians, like liquid metal ones.
    I wonder what the in universe definition of self is then? Is it merely the fact that those above mentioned beings don’t have a personality that grows (pardon the pun) organically that sets them apart as fake? Or is it something else, as T-elos and some Realians clearly have a sense of self identify.
    5b Shion’s feelings regarding KOS-MOS as she knew her, saying ‘I’m glad I met the real you,’ chaos saying in ep 1 “Where does the real you sleep” all seem to imply that KOS-MOS’s mock personality isn’t something to be missed. But then KOS-MOS declares herself KOS-MOS so how much value does KOS-MOS place on herself pre-awakening is also in question.
    Can you elaborate more on the key?
    13 With Rasmus/Cain If X-Y, and Y has a property of Z, then X should also have said property of Z. Rasmus might have gotten than ability from the cloning process. But then again I don’t think Cain is a Thing, but he (more specifically the vessels of Anima) might have the properties of one. Forgive me I’m going to out on a limb here, Cain to me is likely to be another incarnation of chaos, whose VoA have been known to eat a person who resonated too highly with it.
    Your second statement is true.
    19 Haven’t they already met each other. I’d like to see Elma/Alvis/chaos meet, then Elma/T-elos/KOS-MOS/Mayneth/various Machina.
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Wed May 27, 2015 9:52 pm

    If I may interject as a Ramsus fangirl?

    Emperor Cain was the first human born on the planet Xenogears took place on, birthed from the original Miang Hawwa, before they divided and became Miang and Elly. I imagine with the plans Miang and Deus had for Cain, he had to be able to live for a long period of time and be able to wield incredible amounts of power, so I imagine a lot of planning went into making Cain perfect. However, I don't see that as a relation to chaos. chaos, Alvis, and the Wave Existence have always been one step removed from the emotional turmoil of the plots, and in the beginning, Emperor Cain was on Deus' side, which was directly opposed to the Wave Existence's will (to be free from Deus), and those it empowered (Fei and Elly). I don't see chaos there. By the time Xenogears starts, Emperor Cain is removed from the fighting because he is dying, and is regretting his past violence against The Contact, and is trying to ensure the survival of humanity instead of its enslavement to Deus, but that decision is very recent, possibly within the last 400-500 years if not sooner. I think Cain's change of heart to side against Deus would be him taking the side of chaos/The Wave Existence, but after such a long time, I think the Wave Existence would be repelled by Cain or anything it perceived to resemble Cain.

    Krelian, in his rush to speed up Cain's demise once it was realized that he was no longer on Deus' side, needed a piece of Cain's power to kill him, hence Rameses 0808191 (and however many other Rameseses came before him). That's a lot of numbers in that designation, and it's already canon that there's at least two clones of Cain floating around (Ramsus by proxy and the clone they used to rally the Solarians when the party reaches Etrenank on Disc 1), so cloning Emperor Cain was not an easy process. Even though 0808191 ended as an incomplete project, I think Krelian taking the time to grow him for 10 years instead of flash-cloning means that 0808191 was a lot more high quality than Krelian's earlier experiments, and therefore, potentially more powerful. 0808191 was able to survive the violence of being taken from his tank, and was able to overtake the body of a healthy young man (Kahran Bekka) who was enrolled in a military academy that prized people with strong ether powers that otherwise would have been able to best a disembodied brain with wings (?) in battle.

    TL;DR, Emperor Cain is quality, and Ramsus is quality, even as a brain in a jar.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Thu May 28, 2015 3:47 am

    @samarishim wrote:4 I think there would be less of an issue of the CU being destroyed because fewer people would work up the will/emotions to not go into the CU. The universe wouldn’t run the risk of being destroyed but human society might.

    Well, if properties of CU affect technologies used by humans and/or the state of the universe as a whole, then it probably would affect something eventually. Otherwise, gnosis reaching critical mass - essentially problems with CU having direct averse effect on everything else - wouldn't nearly collapse the whole universe, right?

    @samarishim wrote:
    How many times have you seen an entity in fiction similar to the CU?

    Warhammer's Warp is basically it.

    Which, given how both 40k and Fantasy settings of it are more or less giant megacrossover fanfictions, was probably nicked from a dozen different pre-existing sources piecemeal. I'm not really well-read enough to note specific examples though.

    @samarishim wrote:
    5b Shion’s feelings regarding KOS-MOS as she knew her, saying ‘I’m glad I met the real you,’ chaos saying in ep 1 “Where does the real you sleep” all seem to imply that KOS-MOS’s mock personality isn’t something to be missed. But then KOS-MOS declares herself KOS-MOS so how much value does KOS-MOS place on herself pre-awakening is also in question.

    chaos has no reason to care about that, certainly, but, personally, I think that Shion's obsession (she behaves like KOS-MOS is her own child sometimes) would not allow the transition to go so smoothly.

    It could be argued that Shion was not entirely truthful about her feelings there for KOS-MOS' sake, but a). such behaviour is, frankly, too considerate for Shion and b). KOS-MOS still has her sensory equipment and enough data on Shion's mannerisms to catch her lying, which Shion would know as well, so...

    @samarishim wrote:  
    Can you elaborate more on the key?

    That's just pure speculation on my part.

    Every other shown instance of characters trying to do something about this universe collapse predicament so far has them doing so via making use of the things that somehow were on Earth since the time Wilhelm and chaos could remember things (which are Wilhelm, chaos, Zohar, Zarathustra and their powers respectively).

    On the other hand, Zohar is a huge monolith that was supposedly right in the center of this growing anomaly that chased people off Earth and nearby space, but it still got towed out of there somehow. So what could've been left behind?

    Wilhelm ought to either consider said hypothetical artefact not an option or just not know about it at all for him to try to do what he did in canon. And if chaos knows something potentially useful is still there, why he didn't do anything about it earlier?

    And all attempts to make use of these artefacts has apparently failed to solve the problem so far anyway.

    And if chaos simply wanted to say 'hey, people, I'll be remanifesting back on Earth soon, if you could kindly get a ship there, pronto', he'd probably go ahead and say just that. Or, 'hey, Mary got catapulted there, get a ship to Earth and fish her out, you'll need her', for that matter.

    So, about the only thing I can think of is that something about Earth or something that is nearby would be 'the key'.

    @samarishim wrote:  
    19 Haven’t they already met each other. I’d like to see Elma/Alvis/chaos meet, then Elma/T-elos/KOS-MOS/Mayneth/various Machina.  

    Forgot to mention it, but Riki is a totally cool dude as well.


    @katimus_prime wrote:
    TL;DR, Emperor Cain is quality, and Ramsus is quality, even as a brain in a jar.

    Okay. But is Emperor Cain a brain in a jar as well or not?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Thu May 28, 2015 7:31 am

    As far as I know, Emperor Cain's deteriorated physical state made the mask necessary. I imagine he was a shriveled husk, but not a brain in a jar. What's leading to this conclusion?


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu May 28, 2015 9:44 am

    Katimus didn’t you just say that “Emperor Cain is quality, and Ramsus is quality, even as a brain in a jar.”
    Well with the chaos/Cain relation I’m just agreeing with AC/Yuriev’s speculation, along with Takahashi’s statements of KOS-MOS/chaos being present in every arc but probably in different forms. Reincarnation does take people in unexpected directions.
    Tell me if I’m wrong first woman in Miang mode gives birth to Cain + Gazel Ministry, then splits into Elly/Miang, Elly taking care of Abel, not sure what happened to 2nd Miang. Cain/Gazel Ministry somehow serve as the ancestors of that planet’s humanity and Miang? Copies serve as the new humanity’s caretakers.
    Yikari 4 That is true, and my speculation on the collapse of humanity could affect the CU in some way. The state of human society and the stability of the CU do affect each other.
    I’ve seen other mentions of a CU in works by Kinoku Nasu and SMT subseries Persona. In the Nasuverse there is Alaya the collective unconsicious will of mankind to avoid extinction similar to Wilhelm. In both series gods are born from the collective desires of humanity. The gods are sapient but not Alaya which acts more like an immune system. Gaia the will of the planet would be reflected by chaos the desire of the Earth/universe to survive at humanity’s expense.
    5b So to you Shion telling the truth when she said that.
    On the key one of Takahashi’s themes is humanity should solve its’ problems by itself and not rely on gods or artifacts. Well chaos was never much of a director of people or direct/active player in mankind’s history. Thank you for your speculation.
    21 Would there be much point in comparing Alvis and chaos? What about Miang/Mary Magdalene/KOS-MOS?
    22 Does reincarnation play a role in Saga?
    23 Any thoughts on what the Saga crew might find on Lost Jerusalem?
    24 What about future story arcs set in this universe?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Thu May 28, 2015 12:30 pm

    @samarishim wrote:Katimus didn’t you just say that “Emperor Cain is quality, and Ramsus is quality, even as a brain in a jar.”

    Ah, sorry, I should have split that into two sentences. Emperor Cain is quality (but old at the beginning of XG Episode V). Ramsus is also quality, even as a brain in a jar.

    @samarishim wrote:Well with the chaos/Cain relation I’m just agreeing with AC/Yuriev’s speculation, along with Takahashi’s statements of KOS-MOS/chaos being present in every arc but probably in different forms. Reincarnation does take people in unexpected directions.

    Ah, I didn't realize that chaos/Cain was one of AC's speculations. I haven't read a great deal of his essays. >_>;

    @samarishim wrote:Tell me if I’m wrong first woman in Miang mode gives birth to Cain + Gazel Ministry, then splits into Elly/Miang, Elly taking care of Abel, not sure what happened to 2nd Miang. Cain/Gazel Ministry somehow serve as the ancestors of that planet’s humanity and Miang? Copies serve as the new humanity’s caretakers.

    According to what I've read from the XG PW translation page, once differentiated from Elly, Miang climbs back into Kadomony (the molecular reconstruction plant) to re-integrate more closely with Deus.
    Source:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/29956195@N08/2869887353/in/album-72157616593453778/ (It's the blurb with the white background in the chart below Elhaym (Elly) in red and Miang (M0000) in yellow.)
    This page also relevant:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/29956195@N08/2869886157/in/album-72157616593453778/

    @samarishim wrote:21 Would there be much point in comparing Alvis and chaos? What about Miang/Mary Magdalene/KOS-MOS?
    I think comparing Alvis and chaos is very apt, as well as Miang/Mary M/KOS-MOS. Although I do think Mary M and Miang have much more in common with being tied to destiny than KOS-MOS' own personality, (the red-eyed one) which KOS-MOS made the distinction of from Mary M when she turned on Wilhelm at the end of XS3. Miang's destiny/purposes are tied very closely to Deus, where Mary M's and T-elos' destiny/purpose are tied closely with Wilhelm's machinations.

    @samarishim wrote:22 Does reincarnation play a role in Saga?

    With the scenes we are shown with Shion and Mary M in the past, there's not as much reincarnation directly shown in Saga as there is in Gears, but it is still there, and heavily implied in the character designs and personalities for Cherenkov, Jin, Abel, Nephilim, and Jr.

    @samarishim wrote:Any thoughts on what the Saga crew might find on Lost Jerusalem?

    Either a whorde of Gnosis or a disquieted Original Zohar. I think, if chaos has as much similarity to the Wave Existence as I think he does, a possible reunion with chaos might be possible on Lost Jerusalem.

    @samarishim wrote:24 What about future story arcs set in this universe?

    I think for Saga, a story about a journey to Lost Jerusalem could be one arc, and rebuilding the UMN could be another. @stitchedmoon's fic http://stitchedmoon.spadenet.net/unconquered/ explores the UMN reconstruction arc in depth. :3

    For Gears, I think a story about rebuilding their world is in order. IDK where further conflict to drive an interesting narrative would come from, though, aside from infighting and resource-gathering while a second generation is born from the ashes of the conflict with Deus. There'd be a lull in action that would need to be skipped over for things to get exciting again.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu May 28, 2015 12:52 pm

    21 Cain/chaos had a // with both being able to control/resonate with the VoA. Alvis/chaos have a similar phenotype and are a god like existence in their respective stories. Miang/Mary M are both closely associated with Animus. With the power of Animus given to Nephilim it seems likely she'll become the Miang/Elly on Lost Jerusalem.
    23 I think a new civilization might be found assuming the time dilation works like it says in Perfect Guide, but the translation was kind of wonky on that one.
    25 Besides Alpha-1 (-Persona-) Kadomony what other parts of Deus's operating system are there?
    26 Any explanation for why Realian bodies turn to salt when touched by Gnosis, and why they also go mad when hearing the Song of Nephillim?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Fri May 29, 2015 10:32 am

    @katimus_prime wrote:
    What's leading to this conclusion?

    Well, we see that cutscene with Ramsus getting casually discarded by his creators while sitting in a tube, looking like a very strangly formed baby twitching angrily. The implication I got from the scene is that Ramsus somehow remembered this.

    Then there is the side materials explaining that Ramsus as we know him is actually a Thing that jumped some kid and lived in his body ever since. It is also stated that he is Cain's clone and was engineered to replicate Cain's super powers.

    So, with that in mind, is Cain also a Thing (inside a human body or not) or not?

    @samarishim wrote:
    I’ve seen other mentions of a CU in works by Kinoku Nasu and SMT subseries Persona.

    I'd argue that Alaya, having limited power even on only one planet, doesn't hold a handle to Xenosaga's CU and that chaos is too human-like for a manifestation of an entity that would breathe easier if all of humanity suddenly dropped dead tomorrow like Nasuverse's Gaia is.

    Sea of Souls? Is it really that integral to the universe's workings to have other universe's natives looking in and trying to prevent things when it threatens to fall apart? I'm sorry if this question sounds silly, my knowledge of Persona is very limited.

    @samarishim wrote:
    On the key one of Takahashi’s themes is humanity should solve its’ problems by itself and not rely on gods or artifacts.

    All those times characters had to rely on super powerful mechs running on god juice just to survive seem to suggest otherwise, methinks.

    @samarishim wrote:
    5b So to you Shion telling the truth when she said that.

    More like it wouldn't fit for her to lie, yet it also wouldn't fit for her to really think that either. Seems like a subplot that was nipped in the bud because Ep.III was decided to be the last Xenosaga game.

    I don't mean to say that the change that happened to KOS-MOS on that day should lead to resentment and, eventually, enmity that would see both of them dead in a manner befitting that of a classical tragedy, no.

    But... people can't just swallow such things without a trace down the line somewhere. A neat and accurate conclusion like that looks implausible, in my opinion.

    @samarishim wrote:   
    23 Any thoughts on what the Saga crew might find on Lost Jerusalem?

    Gears' crew? Razz

    @samarishim wrote:
    24 What about future story arcs set in this universe?

    Xenogears seems like it was building up for the characters to get found out by people from other planets, IMHO. With Deus' assumption of 'shoot first, ask questions never' being a not completely unreasonable modus operandi.

    Xenosaga? Umm... the universe finally getting fed up with this frack and collapsing for good? With the characters having to find a way to hightail it out of there and have wonky adventures in other places like in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or something?

    @samarishim wrote:
    26 Any explanation for why Realian bodies turn to salt when touched by Gnosis, and why they also go mad when hearing the Song of Nephillim?

    What do you mean? Don't human bodies do that too (expect when they don't, but database seems to insist they do)?

    Given how gnosis supposedly leave only salt too when hit by Glibert and shot dead and how 'let's Glibert and shoot them all dead' isn't considered as an option by the characters, wouldn't it mean the affected people turn into gnosis but go straight into the imaginary domain to do whatever gnosis do before they can re-manifest?

    As for realians going all extremely agressive during the Miltia Conflict, wasn't it because they got specially prepped to do so upon the Song's activation on Proto Merkabah (Ep.I's final dungeon and that bit on realians getting rerouted into one specific facility for maintenance in Ep.III during the section Shion and Allen go undercover)? As far as I remember, it is one of those few instances of Xenosaga's favourite 'it is going out of control!' plot twist that is actually shown to be a very much deliberate and carefully calculated act of sabotage.
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Fri May 29, 2015 12:06 pm

    @Yikari wrote:Well, we see that cutscene with Ramsus getting casually discarded by his creators while sitting in a tube, looking like a very strangly formed baby twitching angrily. The implication I got from the scene is that Ramsus somehow remembered this.

    Then there is the side materials explaining that Ramsus as we know him is actually a Thing that jumped some kid and lived in his body ever since. It is also stated that he is Cain's clone and was engineered to replicate Cain's super powers.

    So, with that in mind, is Cain also a Thing (inside a human body or not) or not?

    Ohhhhh, okay. So, as I understand it, Ramsus was only a floating brain in a tube because of the way Krelian was growing him. I always thought that Cain was birthed from Miang 10000 years ago as a regular (but much more powerful) human.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Fri May 29, 2015 2:32 pm

    With Persona’s inclusion I was just pointing out the fact that a CU features in it, wasn’t looking too closely at the details there.
    Well with XG/XB the protags kill the false god/demiurge and seek to decide their fate by themselves, and chaos at the end of Ep 3 mentions wanting to believe in the light of humanity’s will, and the entire party had just finished throwing off Wilhelm’s shackles. No one can decide what is humanity’s fate except itself.
    23 They might find an alternate version of Gears crew, the question remains if there is a Deus analogue they just defeated or not.
    24 I think following on his theme is that either humanity is going to get it’s act together or die, no universe hopping here, the problem likely exists wherever humanity is.
    26 I thought all humans besides Anima/us resonants would always become Gnosis if touched because they’d be contaminated. While Realians turned to salt due to impure bodies. I’m not sure I can answer the rest of your question.
    Wait Kahr Ramsus wasn’t a fetus when they threw him out?
    7b Was it ever confirmed that there are // universes, thus they are likely to have CUs in them as well?
    7c If there is a multiverse would you like it to be explored by Takahashi?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Sat May 30, 2015 1:27 am

    (Sorry for the delay in my response! I need to get my whole brain in the game for these!)


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