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    Discussion: Shion Uzuki

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    katimus_prime
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    Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by katimus_prime on Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:53 pm

    I'm really tired and this is copy-pasted from my tumblr, so this will reference tumblr in several places, but I didn't want to not post this here.

    Another day on the Xenosaga tumblr tag, another tumblr user throwing shade at Shion Uzuki.  Maybe I’m just hella defensive of peeps that end up in my ships, but even before she was, I really appreciated her as a character. If I were in her shoes, I may have done many of the same things as Shion. I know Allen is the series woobie, but here’s some light to go with your shade.

    She was the only person aside from Margulis who was ever really nice at length to Commander Cherenkov even though he was a massive dick to her.  She didn’t have to bat a single eyelash after he showed up on the Elsa, but she did, and in doing so, it made me care about her as a person even more than the opening sequence did.  Shion was legit a robot guidance councilor to the Realians on the Woglinde, and obviously passionate about her job. She was empathetic to MOMO’s legit problems, and she got shit done.

    I’m not on good terms with my sister, so I don’t seek her out. I do things to avoid her pretty much at all times.  I get Shion’s avoidance of Jin.  If my fiance got ripped to shreds by the prototype android I was building to fight the fucking ghost bugs, I wouldn’t have been able to return to the project at all.  I find Shion to be ridiculously strong and empathetic.  She can’t be all strong or all empathetic all the time, though.  Nobody can.  Especially not anyone in the thick of all the shit Shion’s in.

    Look, I know people often look to heroes in stories for strength that they don’t have, but there is merit in having heroes that aren’t strong or right or flawless all the time.  I have bipolar disorder.  The way Iron Man 3 was arranged really made me like it a lot, because it shed light on having that type of problem, but people tear into it all the time because it wasn’t a sunshine, rainbows, explosions action romp like most other superhero movies are.

    I guess I wouldn’t be so defensive if I cared more about Allen’s unrequited crush on her. Allen’s a sweet dude, but up until that crazy moment, he hadn’t been moved to say all the things he said. Because he didn’t say anything, Shion couldn’t have known anything, or even if she did, Allen just wasn’t determined or prepared enough to perpetuate it. I know when I was trying to patch myself up after my huge breakdown, I was completely unaware of anyone else’s feelings for me and pushed people away because I didn’t want to drag them through the shit I was still going through.

    TL;DR, I like Shion.  It’s totally okay to like Shion.  The end.


    Last edited by katimus_prime on Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by Yikari on Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:44 am

    Hmm.... I assume you've posted this here to discuss it, yes? I hope it will be alright if I were to type out my thoughts on the matter.

    XXX

    I don't like Shion, not really.

    Nothing anywhere near for a right and proper internet bashing, no. I even like her as a character that comes off more believable and human than most and causes feelings on my part, in this roundabout intellectual sort of way.

    That doesn't however change the fact that, on a purely emotional level, if I were to meet a person behaving similarly IRL, I would've been tempted to punch them in the face.

    I suspect that I've been affected by a knee-jerk reaction of sorts triggered by her actions in the earlier parts of episode 1 (Shion busting out 'I did not raise you to be that way' and 'guilt-trip' manoeuvres during her interactions with KOS-MOS was met with all of my no, for example); I was quite possibly viewing everything that happened after that through a lense of negative bias and thus have distorted my perspecitve before the game has even properly begun.

    Later on there is the unfortunate switch of Miyuki's role come the third game. Perhaps it is meant to be taken as kind of an omake, but Shion's behaviour towards her is both assholish and... uncomfortably similar to what Jin does (apparently on a regular basis) when they meet. Maybe I am seeing things that are not actually there, but given how Xenosaga handles its characters, I am disinclined to throw out these scenes as simply gags done in a style I am not a fan of with no bearing to character development whatsoever.

    (However much I may or may not adore Jin, if he genuinely believes the best he could do for Shion is to provoke as much of her enmity as possible - to shift it all over to her last remaining family alive - the man is an asshole and/or needs a reality check.)

    Allen... Previously, I was very much sympathetic of his side of the matter. (That's neither here, nor there, but I think that Shion deliberately 'missing' his cues in an attempt to discourage Allen's pursuit in a less... 'face meet wall' manner would've made a more interesting dynamic than her honestly not noticing anything at all until waaaaay back in the finale.)

    You do raise a good point though: for all the things he says after getting that dose of Force Lightning, he never actually managed to help Shion with any of the issues that were plaguing her on-screen. Sure, he was obviously worried about her well-being, but he was unable to reach any of the really deep-rooted stuff, not really. Which makes the scene come across as either if some improtant scenes between this and the start didn't make the cut (a thought that dogged my episode 3 playthrough on a constant basis), or... Allen being a hypocrite.

    Neither any other characters did, for that matter. And it all built-up to a crescendo of clusterfuck that happened in episode 3, culminating in one person's grief in the right place, at the right time setting off a bunch of dominos that almost crushed the world flat.

    XXX

    You know what?

    Imagine if episode 3 didn't end in the main party gleefully destroying the only confirmed way to prevent the destruction of everything as they know it. It probably would've resulted in a more 'boring' bittersweet ending, but before that it would've likely involved Shion becoming more emotionally stable before the antagonists could get to her with their manipulative ways and thus not causing the 'suddenly Gnosis, everywhere' event, or, at least not in quite as catastrophic fashion.

    Imagine that it would not happen just because of some herculean effort on Shion's part, suddenly able to draw strength from some suspiciously asspull-looking depths. While I may like reading about characters overcoming difficulties with sheer grit every now and again, I feel it would be a... wrong approach to take.

    No, instead imagine other characters taking their time and effort to make one step more in helping out Shion with her own demons. (And many of them do want to help her; not all of them are like Yuriev, after all.) It may be something small, it may be something big. A one-off thing or a consistent effort. Something that would help her to if not work through the shit the life has thrown at her, then at least make peace with it. Something that would help her to finally move on with her life.

    Imagine if, say, Jin, in that scene with a skype call waaaay back on Woglinde, when faced with Shion's vehement disagreement on participating in traditional commemoration of their deceased parents swallows his retort and replies instead with something along the lines of 'Okay, I'll do that on my own. You don't need to participate if you don't want to. Just... come home if you can, please. I miss you.'

    Perhaps Jin deciding to do something about the only remaining bond he has left with someone dear to him this early in the timeline is too much of a stretch. But imagine if it isn't. Imagine if he decided to step up his efforts in making up with Shion instead of letting it all drift away. What would happen then?

    What about other characters?

    (Bonus points if you can come up with something Albedo might've said or did to help Shion, however inadvertently done - or not - it may be.)

    EDIT:
    And just as I've posted this, winamp 'randomly' comes up with Albedo's theme - one track in a list of 1176 entries. Maybe I am onto something here. Very Happy
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by katimus_prime on Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:23 am

    Ehheh, actually, I was hoping to gather likeminded folks who also really liked Shion, but I guess I messed that up, so I've changed the title of the topic. I copy-pasted this from tumblr really quickly. ^^ I don't really have a rebuttal prepared, though.


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by stitchedmoon on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:49 pm

    I like Shion.  I didn't always, but I do now.  She was one of my favorite characters in Episode I (at least until Ziggy showed up, heh), and I used to think her character development went off the rails after that, but in retrospect I really do think her reactions to the things happening around her were realistic.  (I also think it's OK to dislike her for valid reasons, like what Yikari said, but a lot of the reasons I've seen outside of this thread are pretty shallow and kind of, like, things that would be pardoned if it were a male character acting that way?  IDK, seeing a lot of hate in the xeno-tag on tumblr has kind of put me on the defensive for that sort of thing.)

    But as far as her lashing out and pushing people away (Jin, Allen, Miyuki, etc.), I think it makes a lot of sense in her situation, and I can kinda relate to it too. :|


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by Yikari on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:28 am

    Ah, so I've kind of derailed the thread? My bad. Embarassed

    Let's see, things I like about Shion...

    Helping out the realian folk back during the Woglinde character establishing act, definitely.

    It could be argued if she's qualified for the task (even before we get to see the flashabacks of the shit she lived through some of the text in those short snippets looks iffy) or if she was doing it just because she wanted to help and not, say, distract herself from her thoughts by doing something.

    But regardless of her reasons, those kids needed help and she went and helped them. Nobody else outside of people directly responsible with their livelihood even tried to help (Vergil sure as hell didn't), but Shion did.

    (One could say that nobody else onboard had the requisite knowledge to work the equipment there, yes. But instead of people coming along to say 'hey, doc, those crates look heavy, let us help you move them where you need them' or 'hey, doc, we went and grabbed your lunch from the mess hall for you, so you don't need to run anywhere, just choose a cot, take a breather and eat in peace' or any other little thing, we see a military officer drop in to harass the patients. Kinda says something, doesn't it?)

    The scene with MOMO in the park. While I don't think that was the best thing to say, it's still more than others did. Maybe MOMO just didn't approach anybody else on the matter and that was why (don' wanna diss the Zig man but his severe countenance may have had something to do with that one). Maybe it was just one of those many things that just didn't make the cut. But I choose to believe that Shion went out of her comfort zone and tried to help anyway, even if she didn't really know what to say or do.

    I think both of those makes her a better person than most, regardless of any other parts of her personality.
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by katimus_prime on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:20 pm

    Hey, no worries, Yikari! I just didn't have anything high-quality to counter with because my first post was a high quality counter to someone I'll never meet's argument on tumblr. ^^;

    I think it is at least mentioned that Shion was qualified to work with the Realian R&D Division by the Realian councilor dude before Virgil shows up, but her work on KOS-MOS was probably always put first, especially if Kevin kept her focused on that project.

    I really do find a lot of fault with Kevin when it comes to the subject of Shion's damage, because then I can kinda blame it on Wilhelm(I've never liked Wilhelm). People are responsible for their own actions, but the way in which Shion was manipulated I think removes some of that blame.


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by Arylett Charnoa on Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:36 pm

    @katimus_prime wrote:Ehheh, actually, I was hoping to gather likeminded folks who also really liked Shion, but I guess I messed that up, so I've changed the title of the topic. I copy-pasted this from tumblr really quickly. ^^ I don't really have a rebuttal prepared, though.
    Here I am! One of Shion's number one fans!

    I absolutely love that girl. But if I were her, I'd honestly probably hate myself. I have a bias against my own actions, whereas it is much harder for me to hate others for their wrongdoings. What I find is that I'm more forgiving than most people on the internet. And I also find that a lot of people on the internet tend to find female characters more annoying for some reason. I'm not sure why. They just really vehemently hate a lot of characters whereas I find it difficult to hate most fictional characters.

    Whilst I don't like her actions at the end of Episode III, I kind of blame moreso the rushed writing for them really. I think that the whole Shion-siding-with-Kevin thing was probably meant to be done over a longer period of time, and Kevin in generally was just an extremely poorly written character. (I actually dislike him for various reasons, some of which do include a bias for all of the things he did to Shion) It would've been nice to see the characters help Shion work through things in a longer form, as Yikari suggested.

    Look, I know people often look to heroes in stories for strength that they don’t have, but there is merit in having heroes that aren’t strong or right or flawless all the time.  I have bipolar disorder.  The way Iron Man 3 was arranged really made me like it a lot, because it shed light on having that type of problem, but people tear into it all the time because it wasn’t a sunshine, rainbows, explosions action romp like most other superhero movies are.
    So much agreeing here too! I don't like seeing a hero who is much stronger than I do. It completely eliminates my sense of immersion and reliability. I prefer someone more realistically written, because then I can immerse myself in the story. Relating to a character is much more important to me than wish fulfillment as a lot of other people seem to desire. (And there's nothing wrong with that! It just isn't me.) I can admire characters who are stronger than me, but I generally just end up cursing myself for my own weakness and becoming jealous, or aspiring to emulate their better qualities in myself. But in fictions that are full of such powerful special people, it really is nice to see a person suffering from such immense mental issues like I do. (I also have some form of ambiguous mood disorder, so I know that pain.)

    Shion... Shion is the character that I can relate to the most. She is the character in fiction who is the most like me out of anyone I've ever seen. I admire her for her reactions, her weaknesses and her strengths, and as an extremely complex and developed character than any other in video games. Just like all of the other Xenosaga characters.


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by Neosmith on Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:46 am

    I personally think there are Shions. E1 Shion, E2 Shion and E3 Shion. I like E3 Shion the most, as she has the most consistent characterization. I strongly dislike E1 Shion, but I think everyone here knows why by now, so, no need to reiterate.
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:47 pm

    Since DA RULES state it's ok to revive old topics, I just have to say that I cannot understand Shion's haters. Even reading their argumentation, I can't grasp it, because they name something great and then dislike it. Shion is a very realistic character, she's more vividly alive than anybody else in the cast, as she has many traits and behaviors instead of 2-3. I can't comprehend how a character can be disliked for being more realistic than others. Isn't that the art of writing?

    Her reactions are brilliantly done. Even understated. I could never relate, for example, how she discovered that people touched by the Gnosis die and then just "forgot" about it. I'd freak out like hell in her shoes. Your imminent death is not something you forget. Fortunately she did freak out in epIII. To me she's the character with the most soul in Xenosaga, the most three-dimensional.

    And so, to use a contrasting example, I kinda like chaos, but I'm aware that I'm adding to his character from my own imagination. In Shion's case, she's presented so fully that nothing needs to be added. Recently I read that Shion and chaos were both Takashi (Takahashi? I'm bad at remembering names) characters, and the only way I can explain the difference is that Shion was modelled after some actual woman faithfully, and chaos and others were derived solely from imagination. Characters you model after someone real always behave three-dimensionally.
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by stitchedmoon on Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:18 pm

    Yay for reviving old topics! :3  Yeah, I agree that Shion's behavior and character development feel very realistic, maybe to a point that it actually made some fans uncomfortable?  Like, if they were going in expecting a more traditional, heroic main character who never wavers in doing the right thing, or whatever.  :P  I'd blame the modern trend of disliking "problematic" characters but I think the Shion hate actually stems from something earlier (if anything, it seems like more people--myself included--are willing to defend her these days).

    And that's an interesting point about chaos!  He does seem like a more idealized, archetypal sort of character than one you would expect to meet in real life.  KOS-MOS too, in her own way.  They're both interesting characters, but I find them harder to relate to personally.


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by katimus_prime on Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:54 pm

    All of the above! Looking back over my original post, I failed to mention just how human Shion is really portrayed. Along with that humanity comes a lot of flaws, and people seem to fail to sympathize with those, because while she is very human, she's not painted as sympathetic a character as she was in XS1, or starts being painted in a different kind of sympathy. Knowing who she is and what she's been through from XS1, 2 and 3 just deepens her character, and for me, making that emotional connection with her in XS1 was enough to keep up my like for her through the end of XS3.


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:04 am

    @stitchedmoon wrote:Like, if they were going in expecting a more traditional, heroic main character who never wavers in doing the right thing, or whatever.  Razz
    What about characters like Cloud? He seems to be liked.

    @stitchedmoon wrote:I think the Shion hate actually stems from something earlier
    What do you mean by something earlier?

    And that's an interesting point about chaos!  He does seem like a more idealized, archetypal sort of character than one you would expect to meet in real life.
    Oh no, don't ruin my dreams, I hope to marry to someone with that type of character in real life tongue

    Seriously, though, he has a lot of potential depth, but it's never revealed, b\c the author chose to hide everything about him until the last moment. Otherwise, consider these:

    1) he hates being who he is, b\c he doesn't want to destroy the human world;
    2) every new generation he makes new friends and they all inevitably die on him

    Pretty dramatic and at least somewhat relatable. I'd be interested in learning how he deals with all this. Alas...

    As for KOS-MOS, well, she has no personality, in my opinion. Or maybe I'm biased, I disliked her from the very start b\c of her sexist attire. Not that it was her fault what she was wearing...


    Last edited by FishyFish_RU on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:13 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:12 am

    @katimus_prime wrote:Along with that humanity comes a lot of flaws, and people seem to fail to sympathize with those
    Maybe there's something more than that alone...

    I think what people expect from a protagonist is to play a central role. Shion doesn't, other characters often get the limelight (especially Jr.). Even as far as conversations, Shion doesn't dominate them, usually Jr. does, as the most extraverted of the bunch. So she is nominally the protagonist, but neither she behaves like one nor she matters to the story. I'd argue that KOS-MOS overshadows her all the time: she's the powerful one and "unique" one, and Shion is like a damsel in distress in comparison. It's almost like Shion is used to highlight how "cool" KOS-MOS is.

    Even at the very end, she doesn't matter all that much. If it was a traditional story, Shion would be the only thing required for Eternal Recurrence. Instead, chaos and KOS-MOS feel a lot more important.

    I like that, b\c I hate it when the protagonist is the sole savior of the galaxy or something stupid like that. There's no realism in that, it reeks of a fairy tale that tries to please someone very young who identifies with the protagonist, by blowing their importance out of proportions. And I like it when the protagonist is not the most powerful uber mega warrior. There are too many of those in games.

    she's not painted as sympathetic a character as she was in XS1, or starts being painted in a different kind of sympathy.
    What do you mean? I didn't notice any changes. For me she's always been sympathetic, and in EpIII she was the most sympathetic.
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by stitchedmoon on Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:18 am

    @FishyFish_RU wrote:
    @stitchedmoon wrote:Like, if they were going in expecting a more traditional, heroic main character who never wavers in doing the right thing, or whatever.  Razz
    What about characters like Cloud? He seems to be liked.

    @stitchedmoon wrote:I think the Shion hate actually stems from something earlier
    What do you mean by something earlier?

    Ah, I just meant it seems like there's a relatively recent trend in fandoms, especially in communities like tumblr (not to single out tumblr, but I mean, it is kind of a hotbed of this sort of thing), where everything gets judged on its moral and ideological purity and you're only supposed to like characters if you can justify their actions (see: "your fave is problematic" meme), which in my experience leads to one of two things: (1) complex, flawed, but otherwise sympathetic characters (e.g., Shion) get vilified because they make mistakes or do the wrong thing as part of their character development, or (2) characters who do a lot of evil, awful things on purpose, instead of being upheld as well-written antagonists (or just not-nice people whatever side of the plot they happen to be on), have all their motives rationalized and anything harmful they do gets downplayed so their fans can justify it to themselves and not get called out for liking a "bad person."  Like, I'm all about sympathy for the villain, but a lot of fandoms seem to have latched on to this idea that liking a character = agreeing with everything they say or do, so it leads to this "problematic fave/beautiful cinnamon roll" dichotomy that others have probably explained much more clearly and with less rambling than I did just now. ._.

    tl;dr, if Xenosaga had come out, say, a year or two ago, I'd blame the above for making Shion a Problematic Fave, but it came out in the early 2000s when fandoms were a lot different, morality-wise.  So I honestly just think a lot of it was originally rooted in misogyny towards a female character for having (gasp!) realistic emotions, and for being a strong female character but not a Strong Female Character™️.

    Which brings us to the Cloud thing, which is actually a really good point.  Cloud IS liked, generally, and the worst things I've heard said about him are that he was "emo" and "angsty."  Honestly? I think it's because he's a dude.  I don't mean to make everything about sexism, but along with the trend I mentioned above, there's kind of a tendency to be less harsh on (attractive) male characters, and excuse them for things that in a female character would be seen as a sign of "weakness" or "bad writing."  It's kind of a double standard.

    Oh no, don't ruin my dreams, I hope to marry to someone with that type of character in real life tongue

    Seriously, though, he has a lot of potential depth, but it's never revealed, b\c the author chose to hide everything about him until the last moment. Otherwise, consider these:

    1) he hates being who he is, b\c he doesn't want to destroy the human world;
    2) every new generation he makes new friends and they all inevitably die on him

    Pretty dramatic and at least somewhat relatable. I'd be interested in learning how he deals with all this. Alas...

    I think it would have been really interesting if they'd explored that side of his character.  A lot of the characterization in Ep 3 felt rushed and like wasted potential. T_T


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:17 am

    @stitchedmoon wrote:
    Ah, I just meant it seems like there's a relatively recent trend in fandoms, especially in communities like tumblr
    I had to read up on it. I'm not participating in many fandoms, the last one for me was Durarara, but I didn't notice anything of the sort going on there...

    (1) complex, flawed, but otherwise sympathetic characters (e.g., Shion) get vilified because they make mistakes or do the wrong thing as part of their character development
    Shion does nothing wrong, I think... *shrug* Although I seem to remember that someone asked me how I can like Shion after knowing that she summoned the Gnosis. Suspect It's not like she did it on purpose...

    @stitchedmoon wrote:So I honestly just think a lot of it was originally rooted in misogyny towards a female character for having (gasp!) realistic emotions, and for being a strong female character but not a Strong Female Character™️[/url].
    Hmm. I had to think of it a lot. I can't really grasp it...

    In fact, my own reactions were kinda... opposite of this? Or maybe not... But here goes: when I first noticed how emotional Shion was portrayed, I decided that the writer was sexist and depicted Shion as the most emotional of the bunch b\c she was a woman. Smile

    I think the way she cried over Chrenkov looked a bit fake to me. The reason... the reason was chaos, actually. I'm not sure I can explain this, but his kind behavior seemed genuine in the game, b\c it was very consistent. As for Shion, she never displayed any kindness at all, nor any traits like that, but then suddenly she started crying over Cherenkov. I just stared at her in shock! It seemed very out of character for her in ep I. I can say the about the Febronia and the twins incident, her crying seemed unnatural to me. Her compassion was too selective. That's why I thought that the author was sexist: nobody else was crying over them, only Shion who happened to be a woman (and the other women in the party were robots).

    In ep III her behavior finally made sense. She stopped crying over others and instead focused on her personal issues. Which she should've done long ago, since from ep I she thought she was going to turn into a Gnosis after being touched by it... but she "forgot" about it. So in ep III I like her best. She's stopped displaying compassion, which seemed so out-of-place before, and started displaying normal emotions about her own situation.

    It was nice to observe her family troubles with Jin in epII, as well. I don't get along with my older brother, either, so it felt very true to life.

    I think it would have been really interesting if they'd explored that side of his character.  A lot of the characterization in Ep 3 felt rushed and like wasted potential. T_T
    I thought more about it and decided that he must be more lonely than I imagined at first. It's not like he makes new friends every new generation and watches them die. It's more like he has to avoid making friends, otherwise they'll notice that he doesn't age for some reason. So unless he has a habit of passing himself for a Realian, he'd have to avoid spending more than a few years around the same group of people. That sounds awful.
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:07 pm

    @FishyFish_RU wrote:
    she's not painted as sympathetic a character as she was in XS1, or starts being painted in a different kind of sympathy.
    What do you mean? I didn't notice any changes. For me she's always been sympathetic, and in EpIII she was the most sympathetic.

    Shion starts to show a little more of her sour side in XS2 in her dealings with Jin, and in XS3 when there's more admonishment of Miyuki. In XS1, we see her being a lot more flatly magnanimous to the Realians, the Commander, and MOMO, but in XS2 and 3, she starts to deal more with her own problems, and we see that nominal altruism a lot less. Those are the chief (hehe) complaints I hear about Shion's personality from others as the series goes on. I honestly think they make her more well-rounded, because she never stops being the person she was when we were first introduced to her.


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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:51 pm

    @katimus_prime wrote:Shion starts to show a little more of her sour side in XS2 in her dealings with Jin, and in XS3 when there's more admonishment of Miyuki.
    Brothers are problematic, and she's a chief, she's supposed to be able to admonish people. If she was meek, I'd have trouble believing she was promoted to a chief, really.

    I guess I just don't understand what people find wrong with her attitudes. Rolling Eyes In those moment she did resemble someone who's used to dealing with subordinates.

    In XS1, we see her being a lot more flatly magnanimous to the Realians, the Commander, and MOMO, but in XS2 and 3, she starts to deal more with her own problems, and we see that nominal altruism a lot less. 
    Oh I see. So people who believed in her genuine altruism perceived its decrease. I can understand that. I didn't consider it very genuine, though, which explains the differences in perception.

    It's possible they just didn't have resources or time to add in that nominal altruism to her any longer, though. They didn't even add a single compassion gesture to chaos in ep III, so I suppose they cared for Shion's compassion even less at that point. It must've been a mess of a game.
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    FishyFish_RU

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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by FishyFish_RU on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:25 am

    One person in Russian fandom (which consists of about 2 people, lol) said an interesting thing about Shion's situation. She said that people prefer popular stereotypes instead of complex characters, especially if we're talking of female characters and male audience. They liked Shion in the first game for being a cute girl without problems, she said, but once she started to be more complex emotionally and in character she wasn't interesting anymore. I think she does link it to sexism, as well, to some extent.

    I wish we could find out if those people who disliked Shion were predominantly male. Smile
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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by stitchedmoon on Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:25 pm

    That's a really good observation.  Like, I felt that most of Xenosaga's main characters were more than just stereotypes, but maybe it's easier to characterize, say, someone like KOS-MOS in just a few words (badass lady android?) than it is to explain someone with more complex motivations like Shion.  I'd be willing to bet that some of the fans who argue that her character development went off the rails after Episode 1 are just annoyed that she doesn't really fit into the "cute ditzy anime nerd girl with glasses" box and never really did, and that just became clearer as the story went on.  (I mean, I do love her Episode 1 character design for nostalgic reasons, but it was the hints about her backstory and stuff that made her really interesting.)

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's mostly male fans who still dislike her for "friendzoning" Allen or whatever. D:


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    Re: Discussion: Shion Uzuki

    Post by RadicalDreamer on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:37 pm

    @FishyFish_RU wrote:One person in Russian fandom (which consists of about 2 people, lol) said an interesting thing about Shion's situation. She said that people prefer popular stereotypes instead of complex characters, especially if we're talking of female characters and male audience. They liked Shion in the first game for being a cute girl without problems, she said, but once she started to be more complex emotionally and in character she wasn't interesting anymore. I think she does link it to sexism, as well, to some extent.

    I wish we could find out if those people who disliked Shion were predominantly male. Smile

    That's a thing I noticed with the gaming community at large, actually. People just prefer the power fantasies in games. Or the cute/hot girls who will be completely devoted to the main guy but too demure/shy to express their feelings (bonus point if their life sucks and they suffer in silence *jackpot if they fight good*). It's really rare when a character gets major love for having issues for the majority of the game (Vivi from FF9 for example... maybe because he grows into a powerhouse in battle and doesn't look human... he certainly doesn't get the hate kids and mentally confused/ill characters usually do... in fact, the character who gets the most flack for being weak after a traumatic event is... Garnet... and Eiko gets major hate for being a kid *I think her scenes are pretty funny*).

    Another thing that people made me notice about the industry : when a female character finally gets to be the main character (playable), she's generally portrayed as either asexual or gay (this is especially noticable with western games). Why ? Because male developers think male gamers (some developers still think they're the majority to sell their games to) will feel uncomfortable with their playable character romantically pursuing a male character. This is the exact same reason the industry has no gay main male character (maybe there are a few but honestly, I don't know any). In short, it all comes down to male homophobia (lesbians are okay because they can treat them as a fetish). Shion is a weird case... she ultimately accepts/notices Allen... but she spends most of trilogy ignoring him and occasionally being a jerk to him... not to mention the Shion/KOS-MOS lesbian fanservice/subtext.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's mostly male fans who still dislike her for "friendzoning" Allen or whatever. D:

    Maybe... but like I said, if she's considered the main female character, male players will generally feel more comfortable shipping her with KOS-MOS. The thing is... I often saw people sidelining Shion as the heroine. Lots of people prefered KOS-MOS or Jr as the main character.
    That said... I also noticed that more male players were supportive of Allen (especially when he "manned up" in Episode 3) than female players (I did see a few female Xenosaga fans calling him creepy). My own (female) opinion when I played the game was that I was sick of Shion only getting suffering (and lies) out of life. Allen might not be the dream guy (or Shion's true love) but his love and worry for her were honest and selfless... so I kind of supported the pairing.

    But I have no doubt that there were male players who did trash Shion for not being the usual perfect waifu. I think there was a similar reaction to Yukari in Persona 3 (she's a bit similar... and I have to admit there was a time I didn't like her much). I'm pretty sure the most popular girl to date is either Mitsuru (strong and sexy) or Aigis (robot).

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