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    Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

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    katimus_prime
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Sun May 31, 2015 5:12 pm

    @samarishim wrote: 
    26 I thought all humans besides Anima/us resonants would always become Gnosis if touched because they’d be contaminated.  While Realians turned to salt due to impure bodies.  I’m not sure I can answer the rest of your question.

    I thought that it showed a human soldier getting turned to salt in the beginning of XS1 during the Woglinde disaster. Which realians were turned to salt? I don't quite seem to remember? Cherenkov and Kevin's Mother and Betty's gnosisifications were rare occurrences, and it was never explained exactly why only these people turned into gnosis. On Cherenkov's part, I think it was either chaos interrupting him getting turned into salt, or his interaction with the Marienkind Zohar Emulator that marked him as a target for the gnosis, so transforming him to increase his suffering was probably more satisfying to an angry cloud of gnosis who were formerly citizens of Ariadne. They never explain Kevin's Mother or Betty all the way. I don't think I remember why Shion was protected from the phenomenon herself, because I'm a bad fan.

    @samarishim wrote:
    Wait Kahr Ramsus wasn’t a fetus when they threw him out?

    Okay, so, I always just kinda thought that Ramsus was a brain in a jar at that point, but I recently found this image:
    Spoiler:


    That is indeed a fetus. I stand corrected. However, it is a ten year old fetus, and that fetus has...bat wings. It actually reminds me a little bit of Deus' first stage design, and I can definitely see why you guys'd think that Emperor Cain came into the world in the same state. However, I think Krelian was trying to clone Emperor Cain in a way that was sustainable, since he'd failed so many times before. In a bunch of translations that I've read, Emperor Cain is said to "resemble Ramsus but not be an exact likeness," and I always thought that was referring to Ramsus' human features.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/29956195@N08/3297320603/in/album-72157616593453778/
    In this page, Cain is described as the founder of humans, and the skull look is a mask, so that makes me think he is humanoid and was able to walk around without the mask at one point, or the mask is just something he used to put on to show his power (probably integrated into his life-extending stuff by Krelian toward the end).

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/29956195@N08/3342064638/in/album-72157616593453778/
    "The face behind the mask would probably have Ramsus' style of beauty..." If Cain was a brain in a jar, he wouldn't have had a face. \o/


    @samarishim wrote:
    7c If there is a multiverse would you like it to be explored by Takahashi?
    I think if Takahashi-san did a mecha series about the phone book, I would be hella into it. Honestly, I wish I had access to every game he's worked on, both inside and outside the Xeno metaseries. I think I'd like to see him connect Klaus' original sin of losing earth to the events in Gears or Saga (Gears and Saga can't be considered the same universe), and maybe show what happened to make it a multiverse, maybe something like they did to explain things in the new Star Trek series, how it's connected via multiverse to the old Star Trek series.

    Samarishim, you mentioned wanting to talk about robots? Were you talking about Xeno robots or just robots in general? Another thread can be started for that if you like.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:06 am

    4q Does Miang have a mock personality?
    11b How does Takahashi comment on the human condition using non-human characters?
    27 Do you think Takahashi has perfected how to tell a story in a video game, how has his storytelling changed from work to work?
    28. Where did demi-humans come from?
    29. Did Gears Hammer have a point with his motivation for betraying the team?
    30. There are many mysterious/cryptic characters in Takahashi's works, which one is the most cryptic?
    31. Comparing Krelian and Wilhelm they presumably achieved their goals at great cost, do any of you agree with either of their motives and means of accomplishing their goals?
    32. If you had to choose between a party member like KOS-MOS/Emerelda and having mechs for the entire party what would you choose?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:26 pm

    4q Does Miang have a mock personality?
    I'm not quite sure on this. I think she thinks of herself as a program with certain functions that can mimic human behavior, but has no will to tie herself to her emotions because of her close connection to Deus. I guess that's a mock-personality, but I also think that is her real will, which "mock" or "placeholder" doesn't quite cover. Any other personality Miang exhibits to mimic her host bodies is done as a cover, and she's certainly spectacular at it, but I think the undercover sleeper programming she's got keeps her completely devoted to Deus, whereas KOS-MOS was much more free to be herself.

    11b How does Takahashi comment on the human condition using non-human characters?
    I honestly don't think there's any better way to comment on the human condition than to use a non-human character to compare and contrast their behaviors. In Xenosaga, most of the non-human characters evoke a protective impulse in many of the fans' minds, even the not-so-friendly ones like Albedo. Being a non-human in Xenosaga elevates them above the humans, because the humans are constantly squabbling and judging and labeling and putting restrictions on how they can feel. Being a non-human in Xenogears doesn't really have that same connotation because there are so many types of non-humans (demi-humans are prevalent, Tolone and Emeralda are among the very few sentient human constructs in Gears where there was a gigantic Realian subculture in Saga). Xenoblade featured the High-Entia, Homs, Nopon and Machina, which all had varying human tendencies within their respective societies.


    27 Do you think Takahashi has perfected how to tell a story in a video game, how has his storytelling changed from work to work?
    In a recent interview, he says to Iwata-san that he finally has the freedom and resources to tell the story he wants to tell with XBX. I think the metaseries has gone from LET'S SHOVE AS MUCH LORE AND ROBOTS AS WE CAN ONTO THIS PLAYSTATION DISC (Xenogears) to OMG, WE CAN SELL THESE XENOGEARS FUMES (Xenosaga I) to OMG NO WE CAN'T, LET'S JUST LIVE HERE (Xenosaga II), OMG WE'RE TRYING TO SELL FUMES AGAIN? ;_; (Xenosaga III) to WHY CAN'T WE LIVE IN A WORLD WITHOUT FUMES? (Xenoblade). Seriously, the tone of humanity attaining the means to control its own destiny is prevalent in Gears, Saga and Blade, so the spirit is the same, it's only the body that changes, much like reincarnation supposedly works.

    28. Where did demi-humans come from?
    According to XS PW, Demi-Humans arose after the nuclear holocaust following the fall of Zeboim. That's at least when the U-ki (Chu-Chu's race) started showing up. I imagine mutations and interbreeding +4000 years was more than enough to seat them into the world pretty well.

    29. Did Gears Hammer have a point with his motivation for betraying the team?
    I think it had a lot to do with him being powerless and Krelian offering him a lot of power. I remember it being very upsetting when I first played the game because I liked Hammer a lot, but I think there wasn't enough shown about him to show his true motivation.

    30. There are many mysterious/cryptic characters in Takahashi's works, which one is the most cryptic?
    I think it's a tie between U-DO, chaos and Wilhelm. I couldn't really understand half the things they were trying to allude to.

    31. Comparing Krelian and Wilhelm they presumably achieved their goals at great cost, do any of you agree with either of their motives and means of accomplishing their goals?
    No and no, on both counts, although Wilhelm is less of a creep than Krelian. Krelian's whole MO is informed by him being unable to get with Elly, so he joins up with Deus to be the most ultimate creep. Wilhelm just wants to watch this very interesting and lovely world burn, and I disagree with his methods and motives.

    32. If you had to choose between a party member like KOS-MOS/Emerelda and having mechs for the entire party what would you choose?
    As much as I love mechs, I would rather have characters that I care about. However, I don't think characters that are human constructs are mutually exclusive to having a story with mechs - in fact, I think they are more likely to exist in a scifi setting. Can you elaborate on what would make them mutually exclusive?



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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:12 pm

    Thank you for your response.
    29 I thought Hammer encapsulated the thoughts of normal people among giants fairly well.
    31. Really I thought Wilhelm was trying to preserve the Lower Domain regardless of the means to do so.
    32. I was trying to imply that they were mutually exclusive only in a sense of what would keep in your active party.
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:54 pm

    29 I thought Hammer encapsulated the thoughts of normal people among giants fairly well.
    Ah, yesh, I remember that now.  It's been a long time since I've actually played that part and I haven't done any research on Hammer.

    31. Really I thought Wilhelm was trying to preserve the Lower Domain regardless of the means to do so.
    Yeah, that was his reasoning, but IDK, I don't see kindness in killing people who want to live.  Wilhelm wasn't presented to me in a way I could relate to.  I like villains who are emotionally invested in their schemes, and Wilhelm was just too detached.  I don't like Krelian, but he's still a much more interesting character to me than Wilhelm because we get to see that the root of Krelian's MO is an emotional response to something.  If we got to see where Wilhelm was as a character in Mary Magdalene's time, I may have seen it differently.

    32. I was trying to imply that they were mutually exclusive only in a sense of what would keep in your active party.
    Ahhh, ok.  Personally, I like having the choice of both.  There's very few robot RPG combat games out there, and Xenogears handled it the best, I think.  I like knowing about the personalities of the pilots, so I also think I could do an all-mech JRPG in the same style as Gears, even without the fighting on foot.  I think that would appeal to a more limited audience, but...giant robots, man.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:43 pm

    33. Was Fei the only Contact that got all their incarnations memories?
    34. Any thoughts on what the unknown Contact incarnation was like?
    35. With reincarnation and inherited wills coming into play how much of Elly's personality was developed naturally/organically as opposed to influenced by being the Antiype?
    36. Besides needing Ether are the Machina more similar to KOS-MOS/Emerelda or the Realians in being organic?
    37. Besides a gameplay mechanic/and sometimes having god-like power being their engine, do mechs serve any other role in the series?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:46 pm

    33. Was Fei the only Contact that got all their incarnations memories?
    From what I've been reading, Fei (Abel) was the first person to make contact with the Wave Existance, but I'm not sure if he was the only one. I think because the Anti-Type was the Wave Existence's attempt to communicate with the Contact, Elly and Miang also retain all of their incarnations' memories (and at the end, I think it's plausible to say that Elly has access to both her memories and Miang's through the past 10000 years. At least that's the way I'm doing it for the fanfic I'm currently writing).

    34. Any thoughts on what the unknown Contact incarnation was like?
    I'm not sure what this is referring to. I'm interested to know what you mean, tho. Very Happy Are you referring to the lives of Fei that were unexplored in Gears, or something else entirely?

    35. With reincarnation and inherited wills coming into play how much of Elly's personality was developed naturally/organically as opposed to influenced by being the Antiype?
    I think this is where the line gets a little fuzzy. Sophia's personality shows up in Elly the closer she gets to remembering everything. When we first meet Elly, she's trying to live up to being a soldier, which seems to be completely at odds with the influential peace-advocating person Sophia is. I think Elly may have originally been very gentle, but had to put on a tougher face while at Jugend and her career at Gebler. I think she was trying to be someone she wasn't. Of course, since Elly is introduced as a little bit of a toughass, it's perceived that she softens up instead of comes into how she's always been, which makes her look weaker from a character standpoint. I actually don't think Elly's all that weak, but there are a few generalizations she makes about women in a few of her speeches that rub me the wrong way.

    36. Besides needing Ether are the Machina more similar to KOS-MOS/Emerelda or the Realians in being organic?
    That, I don't really know. I know that the stronger Faced Mechon constructed by Egil for war run on Ether, but I always thought that the Machina were autonomous robot people that Meyneth created to keep herself company. Or maybe Zanza created them to worship her because he was in love with her and he wanted to express that love in more ways than one? Either way, I don't quite think that the Machina and Realians have all that much in common with each other because Realian development is still very much controlled by humans in Xenosaga. They can't reproduce on their own, but the Machina can.

    37. Besides a gameplay mechanic/and sometimes having god-like power being their engine, do mechs serve any other role in the series?

    To look really really, I mean really really cool? I have looked into old stories about Golems, but I honestly think of giant robots as an expression of an attempt to become one's higher self. I think that's why a lot of giant robot stories are similar to martial arts stories and have started to include higher powers. That and I read in an interview that Takahashi-san's always really loved robots. I think his dad took him to a fair and he wanted a robot toy, but he didn't get it, and he's making up for it now by making stories about people getting robots.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:00 pm

    34 was what I was referring to.
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:43 pm

    Any thoughts on what the unknown Contact incarnation was like?  [Meaning the unexplored previous lives of Fei]
    Well, if Fei lived until age 30 until every one of his deaths and was reincarnated back to back immediately upon dying, there's a possibility of him having 333 lives. I don't think that's how it went down, though, mostly because it doesn't seem realistic to me, even with the Wave Existence's involvement (I don't think it'd cut the Contact's life short intentionally and I think the Contact is protected from calculated instrumental harm enacted upon by Deus to some extent). I think that the Contacts we got to see in Gears are the ones that had the highest amount of drama surrounding them, and are points where he clashed with Miang/The Gazel/Cain the most or connected with Elly/the Wave Existence/the rest of the party the most.

    That being said, I like to believe that most of the lives of the Contact (and the Anti-Type) were lived out humbly, peacefully, or happily. There's a common thread in Fei, Lacan, Kim and Abel that points to a desire to live in peace, away from destiny and expectations. Life in general has its bumps, but I don't think all of his lives (if there were over 300) were so dramatic. I'm sure if a group of people were interested, they could come up with as many stories, but that task seems very monumental. XD

    Of the incarnations of the Contact I know about but don't know much about, I'm most interested in learning more about Abel after the Eldridge fell to the planet (and also the planet's name). I'd like to know more about the Wave Existence and what Emperor Cain REALLY looked like and how the Gazel worked (and to see if they really were the first incarnations of people like Bart, Billy and Citan) and the chance to see Miang and Elly split and how nuts Cain gets about insisting people worship him. There's just so much there from the couple of paragraphs I read in the PW book.

    As for non-Gears Contacts, I actually kinda like to think that Shion and Shulk are contacts by proxy of U-DO and Alvis respectively. However, since Shion and Shulk/Klaus don't have Deus to contend with and neither U-DO nor Alvis really seem to want to escape and end being in contact with people in the third dimension, their destinies are very different.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:51 pm

    I thought there were 5 "major" Contacts with drama in their lives, but the game missed one.

    33 Well Lacan and Fei both made "contact," but Fei seemed to be the only Contact who got all his/every incarnation of the Contact's memories, but that seem is what's confusing me. What does it mean to make an incomplete contact with the Zohar/WE?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:07 pm

    Ohhhhh, I think I get what you're saying now.  The Contact we're missing is the one from the original Xenogears Episode I, which starts 5000 years before Deus is dismantled.  I'm not quite sure how that would qualify as a Contact - Wave Existence communication, because I thought that the event that made Abel the Contact was when he booped the Zohar Modifier in -10000, not -15000.  I think XG Episode I is much more likely to have been the origin point of Shion's story and her  contact with chaos, Jesus and Mary M.  It's a little confusing to me, too, because having the Original Zohar/M.A.M. show up before the Xenogears Wave Existence is trapped during the construction of the Zohar Modifier and still have a ton of extra-dimensional power before the WE gets trapped has me completely without a compass as to what's going on.

    1 - Abel
    2 - Kim Kaseem
    3 - Lacan
       3.5 - Grahf (Disembodied after Lacan's death)
    4 - Fei

    33 Well Lacan and Fei both made "contact," but Fei seemed to be the only Contact who got all his/every incarnation of the Contact's memories, but that seem is what's confusing me. What does it mean to make an incomplete contact with the Zohar/WE?

    When the spirit of Lacan's hatred became Grahf and he began to be able to possess the bodies of others to make them powerful, he no longer had the special DNA imprinting because he was no longer in his original body.  Even in the body of Fei's father, he must have been an incomplete Contact because what made Fei have the exact sequence of DNA (if you've read Dune, think how the Bene Gesserit were trying to engineer the Kwizatz Haderach - Elly has a similar DNA thing that Krelian calls Ouroboros/Urobulos but I don't remember if he named the one for Fei) that fit came from both Khan Wong and Karen Wong, so even with Grahf's power, the body is only half-usable to the Wave Existence in this state.  Grahf is able to buy a little bit of time, but he has to sacrifice both his body and his spirit to do so because there's not enough HEY I'M THE CONTACT signs for the WE to work with. I tend to think that the WE is extremely selective about what it makes contact with, so it ends up rejecting things that aren't close enough to Abel or Elhaym.  The only reason Krelian gets to be there at the end is because Deus has forced the Zohar Modifier back into itself, and Krelian's self-integration with Deus had him along for the ride (part of what skeeves me about Krelian is that he forces Elly into becoming one with him when Deus and the ZM merge. Even if she doesn't hate Krelian, that's still non-consensual as hell).

    Anyway, Fei doesn't unite with Grahf at Point Bethlehem - he unites with Id, who was experimented on by Krelian and Miang (using Karen's body) to try to mold him into a Contact that they could use, but that obviously failed.  Id was much better primed to be fully awakened to his destiny than any of the Contact's previous incarnations.  We're not really shown if Lacan/Grahf remembers his life as Kim or Abel, but Id knows, and when Fei unifies himself in very close proximity to the Zohar Modifier, and I think it's that point of high drama that awakens Fei to all of his previous memories, where he couldn't before.  I don't think Kim Kaseem was able to shuffle out to Point Bethlehem during the Zeboim nuclear winter, and Abel was just Abel, so there's nothing there to remember yet, even if Abel did make it to Point Bethlehem during his lifetime (which I think he probably did).


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by RadicalDreamer on Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:51 pm

    @katimus_prime wrote:
    When the spirit of Lacan's hatred became Grahf and he began to be able to possess the bodies of others to make them powerful, he no longer had the special DNA imprinting because he was no longer in his original body.  Even in the body of Fei's father, he must have been an incomplete Contact because what made Fei have the exact sequence of DNA (if you've read Dune, think how the Bene Gesserit were trying to engineer the Kwizatz Haderach - Elly has a similar DNA thing that Krelian calls Ouroboros/Urobulos but I don't remember if he named the one for Fei) that fit came from both Khan Wong and Karen Wong, so even with Grahf's power, the body is only half-usable to the Wave Existence in this state.  

    Well, Grahf as a powerful spirit is indeed half-usable. He's just a remnant of the Contact as Lacan.
    But the reason he MADE incomplete contact was tied to the Antitype.
    Lacan made contact (manipulated by Miang) to get powerful after Sophia (antitype)'s death. Maybe trying to make contact when you feel pissed and hurt isn't the way to go. But I think it is explained in PW that the antitype needs to be alive when the contact happens. Perhaps the antitype's physical existence is some sort of activation key/failsafe (and without it, you get cursed/corrupted if you try anything). It didn't apply to Abel the first time. It started to apply AFTER Elly was "born".

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:42 am

    Nice to see you again Radical Dreamer.
    38. Is Jesiah really Billy's dad or not?
    39. Were Citan, Jesiah, Sigurd alongside Rasmus the first known "Elements" grouping?
    40. If Citan was a spy for Cain, Sigurd was a spy for Aveh, what was Jesiah doing?
    41. Which characters that didn't get enough focus in any of the Xeno-meta series games that getting that focus would better serve the plot?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by RadicalDreamer on Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:32 am

    @samarishim wrote:Nice to see you again Radical Dreamer.
    Thanks ! I was lurking and reading the discussions, though. I like this thread.

    @samarishim wrote:38. Is Jesiah really Billy's dad or not?

    Oh, he is. Definitively is. It's just that Billy didn't want to accept it. He's mad at Jesiah for "abandonning his children and wife". And since Jesiah got facial chirurgy while he was gone, it vindicated Billy to push Jesiah away. Not only that but the Church/Ethos/Stone manipulated Billy into seeing Jesiah as the enemy. Primera, however, adores Jesiah. And doesn't trust Stein/Stone (she's either really good at reading people or she saw something her brother didn't concerning Stone... maybe both).

    @samarishim wrote:39. Were Citan, Jesiah, Sigurd alongside Rasmus the first known "Elements" grouping?
    Seems like it. Ramsus created it with Jesiah, following his own ideals (talent over pure-bloodedness).

    @samarishim wrote:40. If Citan was a spy for Cain, Sigurd was a spy for Aveh, what was Jesiah doing?

    It is explained in Perfect Works and a bit in the game, as well. Jesiah was researching Krelian's M Plan. He left Solaris with his family (just after being proposed as Gebler commander) because he was disgusted with what he found out and they weren't safe anymore (as people who are against the government and looking into what's wrong).
    So, he, Racquel and Billy moved in Acquvy... as farmers, judging by the look of Billy's house/orphanage. Then, Jesiah joined Gaspar's unit, stole the Buntline Gear from Gebler and defended Shevat against a Gebler/Solaris attack (while Hyuga/Citan was on the other side of the battle).
    Then, he feared that his family would suffer from his actions so he and Racquel planned his disappearance. Then, he met Joshua's Blanche (Shevat's engineer) and tried to reach Shevat once again (maybe in search of Maria already, the daughter of Nikolai, the scientist involved in the M Plan). But they got attacked, Joshua died and Jesiah took his identity (lastname and plastic surgery stuff). Then, a few years later, he came back to his family.
    Nothing is said in PW or the game about that but... I suspect that Jesiah had a team with him when he got back to Acquvy. A team to fight the Ethos. Let's say it's headcanon on my part.
    I get the feeling that Jesiah was tested by Shevat. They don't trust people easily (after all, he was previously from Solaris military and one of his old teammates was the one behind Shevat getting attacked). That's why it was so difficult for him to approach Maria, in the end.

    @samarishim wrote:41. Which characters that didn't get enough focus in any of the Xeno-meta series games that getting that focus would better serve the plot?

    Well, I can only talk about Xenogears here... But I think Emeralda would be a perfect main protagonist for the Episode 6 we know so little about (I'm okay with aliens/other humans landing on Xenogears planet and main characters searching for answers concerning Earth, Deus, the Higher Dimension, etc...). She's perfect because :

    - she has a long and possibly eternal lifespan... meaning you can set the story in a near or distant future and still have her.
    - she's the daughter of the two main protagonists of Episode 2/3/4/5.
    - she's a powerful girl/woman, in a fun way (I mean, look what she can do with her body)
    - she got little personal development in Episode 3 or 5. For narrative reasons I understand.
    - she was conceived as the "hope for humanity"... Krelian twisted that meaning but Episode 6 could show us exactly how Emeralda could be a savior.
    - she's an interesting type of character to develop, I think. She's not human, long lifepan (Highlander comes to mind), peculiar body abilities (how does one live with this without being seen as a freak?)... and her personality (even if the game barely developped it) and looks appeal to me, I guess.

    Characters like Ramsus and Tolone can potentially live longer than most of the current cast, as well (and Zephyr and the old sages... but I get the feeling they'd desire death at some point). Maybe they could be used too.
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:58 pm

    Glad to see you back in the thread, too, RD! :3 Work is busy today, but I like all of your responses!!


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:51 pm

    42 How did Sigurd get to Solaris?
    43 Where did Citan meet Yui, why did they chose to settle in Lahan, and did Shevat pick up all the Lahan survivors?
    44 Where/how did Rasmus recruit the 2nd known group of Elements?
    45 Were the Gears all built in Zeboim or were they on the Eldridge?
    46 What are the remaining intact parts of the Eldridge?
    47 Of the 3 sages of Shevat which one am I missing? There was Krelian's teacher Taurus, and the guy living in caves under the desert, who am I missing.
    48 Why is Yuriev called a Salvator Child, and where did he get the Grahf like ability to possess bodies?
    49 What was/were Bishop Stone/Stein's origins?
    50 If Solaris has been around since almost the founding of civilization on this planet, then when did Shevat come in?
    51 If there is a god-like being should it be controlled, worshipped or have neither done to it?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:55 pm

    42 How did Sigurd get to Solaris?
    Looks like according to the PW translation, Sigurd was kidnapped and experimented on because his ether response was high - https://www.flickr.com/photos/29956195@N08/3314718402/in/album-72157616593453778/
    43 Where did Citan meet Yui, why did they chose to settle in Lahan, and did Shevat pick up all the Lahan survivors?
    Citan met Yui Gaspar when Solaris invaded Shevat, I imagine at least 6 years before the start of Episode 5. I think Emperor Cain asked Citan to watch over Fei and allowed him to live in Lahan with his wife peacefully. IDK how well Emperor Cain felt about Citan falling in love with someone from Shevat, but I imagine he was less concerned with the success of the invasion and more concerned with the status of the Contact at that point.

    Aaaah, my lunch is over. I will have to finish these later!


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:32 am

    Okay, sorry for the wait! Work has been insane for me lately.

    44 Where/how did Rasmus recruit the 2nd known group of Elements?
    As far as I know, when Elru was destroyed by Id 7 years prior to the beginning of Episode V, Dominia was saved by Ramsus. Kelvena I think got in on merit at Jugend, Tolone was an experiment of some kind that was going to be trashed, but Ramsus convinced Krelian not to, and Seraphita was from the Surface and demonstrated extraordinary talent enough for Ramsus to convince her to be let into Jugend. I kinda wish the game put across that Seraphita was the most powerful, and therefore the leader like it says in the PW book. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Dominia, but the comedy of Seraphita being the leader of the Neo Elements is so good.

    45 Were the Gears all built in Zeboim or were they on the Eldridge?
    I like to think that they were on the Eldridge, but the first time the mechs are shown being built is during the Zeboim Era.

    46 What are the remaining intact parts of the Eldridge?
    If I remember right, there's Babel Tower, Merkava, and Kadomony?

    47 Of the 3 sages of Shevat which one am I missing? There was Krelian's teacher Taurus, and the guy living in caves under the desert, who am I missing.
    Gaspar is the one missing here. Very Happy I tend to remember them because they're Melchior, Balthazar and Gaspar, who were the 3 Sages in Chrono Trigger. Both of these groups of sages were named after the three kings who visited Jesus at Bethlehem.

    48 Why is Yuriev called a Salvator Child, and where did he get the Grahf like ability to possess bodies?
    I actually thought the URTVs were the Salvator Children, but I'm not an expert on URTVs. I believe Yuriev had been experimenting with something to prolong his life since the beginning of Ziggy's timeline in Pied Piper. Something about a deep-seated fear of U-DO and wanting to escape it or circumvent encountering it?

    49 What was/were Bishop Stone/Stein's origins?
    Isaac(?) Stein was a classmate of Jesse's at Jugend, and he had feelings for Billy's mother, Raquel. I'm not sure if his first name is actually Isaac (because Old Man Bal is Isaac Balthazar), but I have a piece of art from Soraya Saga printed out on a keepsake box that says Isaac Stein on it, so that's how I remembered it. Anyway, Stein/Stone's story was a long revenge game, and I find a thread of similarity between Stone's story and Petyr Baelish's story in Game of Thrones going on.

    50 If Solaris has been around since almost the founding of civilization on this planet, then when did Shevat come in?
    Actually, when reading up on Zeboim, I found that Solaris didn't actually exist as it did until 600 years before the start of the game. Emperor Cain and the Gazel Ministry were certainly around and influential, but the founding of Solaris was done when Cain thought that the human race was ready to become one with God. As for Shevat, I have no idea how long it had been a thing. I can't seem to find anything about its origin in the PW translation, but I might not be looking in the right place. If I were to speculate, I would think that Shevat would have started being a thing after Solaris was founded, probably by some of the people related to the Nisan faith.

    51 If there is a god-like being should it be controlled, worshipped or have neither done to it?
    I'm going to be cheesy and quote Optimus Prime on this - Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. If a godlike entity prefers to be worshiped, I guess that's okay until that worship becomes abusive. A being of great power being controlled against its will seems cruel to me as well. I guess that leaves my answer as neither.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:29 am

    Thank you for your answers.
    52 What is the nature of humanity like in each series?
    53 Why is Xenosaga considered to be a dystopia in spiritual crisis?
    54 Besides the last arc what other "lore" topics could stand to be elaborated upon in both series?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:42 pm

    Sorry for the delay in response! It's been a rough week for me, but I hope to set aside some time this week to answer these. ^^;


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:02 am

    My bad for skipping out!  Embarassed Let's see if I can add something meaningful on any of these...


    32. If you had to choose between a party member like KOS-MOS/Emerelda and having mechs for the entire party what would you choose?

    I choose Ziggy. Very Happy

    Jokes aside, I'd probably like to have a mecha character somewhere. As in a mecha that is also a character.

    Technically, that mech of Maria's in Xenogears could qualify, but it really doesn't do anything. Emeralda and KOS-MOS are all kinds of cool and thought-provoking, but most differences in their use of mecha are cosmetic.

    As far as the newest Xeno game is concerned, the mech tutorial that was shown before the release in Japan - specifically, the way you could play around with diffferent loadouts of weaponry with different ranges, damage types, slot requirements, etc, etc - certainly got my Front Mission juices flowing, yes.

    I don't think that either of these should be exclusive though. It would need the party character(s) that don't have a mecha and/or interact with them in a unique way to have sufficiently different gameplay mechanic(s) to make them a). stand out in lore, plot and gameplay b). be interesting to use c). avoid being too gimmicky to be useful in practice and all around too good to never remove from your active party.

    So, really, my answer is 'all of the above, plz'. Very Happy


    35. With reincarnation and inherited wills coming into play how much of Elly's personality was developed naturally/organically as opposed to influenced by being the Antiype?

    I prefer to think that Elly - the person she was before the game's start - was being gradually but steadily overwritten over the course of Xenogears with no trace remaining. (Just in case there was not enough horror in Xeno for your taste.)

    The outro kind of gives some hope on that front though. Her promising to (maybe) not jump at the first opportunity to sacrifice herself for others next time looks like a marked improvement to the complete lack of self-preservation she exhibited before.


    48 Why is Yuriev called a Salvator Child, and where did he get the Grahf like ability to possess bodies?

    As we see in ruins of Michtam in Ep.III and in the fan translation of Ziggy's mobile game's cutscenes, stuffing a bunch of children full of various modifications in controlled environment on all stages of development to create a slew of smarter children to serve in the government was apparently all the rage ~160 years ago. Which is where, I believe, the 'salvator faction' in the present day comes from.

    Yuriev himself, however, was born an indeterminate amount of time earlier than that. So he really doesn't qualify, as far as I understand it. Unless his most recent body was one of those children and he just covertly hijacked it, of course.

    (I suspect that this initiative was his doing and served as a testbed for what will become URTV in the future, but I can't quote any sources on that, so that may be just my pure headcanon.)

    His body surf ability comes as a side effect of being a mass transfer experiment subject (I can't even say 'survivor' because we have no idea what happened to his original body and how different his mind was before this happened). Xenosaga doesn't provide much more information than that.


    53 Why is Xenosaga considered to be a dystopia in spiritual crisis?

    Xenosaga, unfortunately, shows very little of the setting as a whole, but, considering such database entries as these:

    compressed for space:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Zoar Incident                                                         236
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      The incident that triggered a massive war within the
      Federation, which culminated in the Miltian Conflict.

      Although details pertaining to this incident are unknown,
      it was around this time that Cherenkov was born as a
      super soldier (biological weapon).

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Uberhumans                                                            208
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      During the heyday of the Life Recycling Act, many people
      opted to undergo artificial procedures to enhance physical
      abilities or to increase brain capacity. This term is used
      to describe those individuals or their descendants.

      Although Allen refers to them as "mutants," these gifted
      individuals do not exhibit any external differences when
      compared to ordinary humans.

      Current Federation law prohibits any acts of discrimination
      against such people, yet feelings of hostility still abound
      in various corners of the galaxy. The Kukai Foundation not
      only protects these individuals, but also provides them
      with a means to support themselves.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      personality reconditioning facility                                   156
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      The facility to which Cherenkov was committed.

      Its purpose is to literally recondition an individual's
      personality by processes such as altering neural networks,
      or placing implants that regulate hormone production.

      In this age, vicious criminals are subjected without exception
      to this procedure. Those that go through the procedure are
      returned to society after they successfully complete their
      re-education programs.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Type 7 personality corrective procedure                               206
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      A personality control procedure administered to Cherenkov.

      In this age, every violent criminal whose behavior is a
      result of brain abnormalities, is given this procedure
      without exception.

      The procedure itself actually entails implanting a nano-
      machine which suppresses emotional impulses into the brain.
      However, there are a few individuals that are not cured by
      this, and even more extreme procedures, Type 8 and Type 9,
      are available.

      Incidentally, the ratio of male to female recipients of
      this procedure is 8 to 2, an increase in the proportion
      of females from the current ratio of male to female
      violent criminals with abnormal impulses, which is
      9 to 1.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Life Recycling Act                                                    118
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Introduced as a bill in T.C. 4590, it passed with unusual
      speed and was voted into law the following year, in 4591.

      In the age when cyborg technology was at its peak, human
      resources were dwindling and this law was intended for
      "effective utilization" of these resources.

      However, with time the interpretation of the law expanded
      to condone human cloning, genetic and neural engineering,
      and other procedures formerly considered to be off-limits.

      Various corporate interests are suspected to be behind
      this development.

      This law remained in effect for 160 years, until it was
      revoked in T.C. 4754.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Life Recycling Variant                                               119
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      A term which encompasses individuals or their descendants
      who have had their DNA, neural structure, or other bio-
      logical components heavily modified. Some may display
      extraordinary physical abilities or superhuman powers
      depending on the level of modification, but on the
      other hand many suffer from adverse mental effects.

      In the case of Cherenkov, he was part of a Super Soldier
      program developed by a "certain branch of the military."
      He was created via artificial insemination, and equipped
      with several modifications before being sent off to battle.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Species Preservation Act                                              193
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      A law enacted in order to revive the human race, which had
      degenerated due to the harmful effects of the Life
      Recycling Act.

      The purpose behind this legislation was to preserve and
      propogate a pure breed of humans that was untouched by
      genetic engineering, cloning, or organ enhancements. It also
      strove to restore the original genetic code that had been
      altered by the Life Recycling Act.

      Due to the fact that enforcement is left to the discretion
      of each autonomous state, there is a pointed lack of
      standardization and effectiveness across the
      multitude of jurisdictions.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    autonomous state 017
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Galaxy Federation is comprised of approximately half
    a million autonomous state governments.

    Each autonomous state, divided according to planetary
    systems, has its own administrative and law enforcement
    agencies, but the Federation government's laws take
    precedence over them all.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Fifth Jerusalem                                                       075
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      The capital planet of the Galaxy Federation, and seat of the
      central legislative, judicial, and administrative agencies.
      The headquarters of the S.O.C.E. is also located here.

      Its name originated from the fact that it was the fifth
      planetary capital of the Galaxy Federation.

    I think it's safe to assume that Xenosaga's universe has gone to shit. Repeatedly and on a massive scale.

    I'm not sure about any spiritual crises, but there is a marked increase in Gnosis numbers, so...

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:15 pm

    55 How does the Encephalon work?
    56 Is there known date for the construction of the 99 series Realians?
    57 How does the combat in each game influence how you perceive it?
    58 Is there a character archetype you like the most in Takahashi's works?
    59 Do you think Takahashi could write for another genre?
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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:12 am

    55 How does the Encephalon work?
    To my knowledge, it worked like a virtual reality interface within either KOS-MOS or MOMO's memory banks. I don't remember if it's ever used on a human during the course of the series, though.

    56 Is there known date for the construction of the 99 series Realians?
    That is a very interesting question. o_o I would have thought that they'd have undergone development shortly after Sakura's death, but they seem to be in full swing enough for them to be multiple of them hanging around Albedo in XS2. I'm not sure if those scenes are before or after Sakura's death, though. 14 years ago (when MOMO was completed) puts it at 4753, so I wanna say 4752?

    57 How does the combat in each game influence how you perceive it?
    I actually pay a lot of attention to the battle systems in the games I play. Xenogears was very enjoyable for me, both on-foot and in-mech. Xenosaga I had a very charming battle system that was very customizable, much moreso than Gears, but the AWGS combat in XSI was clunky and pastede on. I didn't finish Xenosaga II because I found its battle system overbearing, and I lost my patience with it and sat and sulked and watched the cutscenes. Xenosaga III's gameplay had a very nice balance of the first 2, it still lacked the depth and customization of XSI, but that was made up for by relevant mech encounters. Xenoblade is an entirely different experience altogether, and I was very impressed by how fun it was. I think it added to my positive experience with the game.

    58 Is there a character archetype you like the most in Takahashi's works?
    I will always gravitate to whomever looks/seems most like Cherenkov or Ramsus. I'll gravitate second to whoever's the most like Margulis.

    59 Do you think Takahashi could write for another genre?
    I'd be very interested in seeing him do a story that takes place in the near future, or a story that takes place entirely in the past (like biblical times). Xenogears crossed into several different genres with its different eras, too. I think he's most interested in scifi, but I would love to see a Takahashi conspiracy film (biblical or otherwise) or a western.


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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by Yikari on Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:37 pm

    @samarishim wrote:55 How does the Encephalon work?

    From what I understand, it's an individual mind's imprint in UMN, as accessed through technological (or not, in case of Voyager and such) means.

    That's about the most concrete thing I could say about it though. Since we never see a 'dive' that doesn't go to crap in a handbasket very fast, we don't now how it is supposed to work normally, let alone what it actually is and how it is different from the run of the mill virtual reality.

    @samarishim wrote:
    57 How does the combat in each game influence how you perceive it?

    XS I:

    the roulette reel of effects is really not fun to play with, choosing your attacks from a list to fit your needs is fun right up to the point you get that one that kills everything good for the rest of the game; combat music uses one track for all fights but the last one; some animations are bit too long to not have an option to skip them; vast majority of attacks requiring skipping turns are not worth the hassle; overall a bit too repetitive by the time you get through the first half of the game or so, but the characters' animations are cool enough to keep the imagination occupied.

    XS II:

    I would've really liked to know (or remeber if it was covered in the tutorial but I've just forgotten about it) that dual-cast is a thing without looking up boss strategies on the net; fast paced combos, while a bit over the top with mid-air juggling, look and feel great; on the downside, the amount of attacks required to down even mooks gets a bit too high rather quickly even if you get the combinations right - yes it makes both Albedo fights go into my favourite boss fights ever list, but otherwise just stretches gameplay hours for no good reason; special weapons requiring waiting are still not very useful; not a fan of mecha combat (although won't be able to define exactly why off the top of my head now; probably has to do with their visual design);

    XS III:

    Good news: No roulette reel anymore! Special weapons are actually useful now! Interesting things with the break meter! Bad news: animations are the worst among the three games; mecha combat sections suck donkey balls (bosses getting their hp superinflated for no good reason is the number one reason why), lots of active abilities you'll never use;

    Overall impression:

    I never had to grind anything in Xenosaga games to get through all mandatory fights. I consider this a great compliment.

    Xenogears:

    I do not find the combat there enjoyable at all. Very high encounter rate coupled with finding your way through dark narrow tunnels with jumping puzzles is not to my taste. Combat itself requires mashing the exact same combination over and over again with little variation. There is little difference in which party members you choose.

    I guess those nitpicks can be leveled at Xenosaga as well, but in those games these issues weren't nearly as acute, in my opinion.

    Xenoblade:

    My sole run of that game is stuck midway so far because of the way the combat in it works. MMORPG-styled gameplay formula with party member AI that tries to actively sabotage you? Not to my taste. Also, hp inflation for enemies gets old rather fast.

    @samarishim wrote:
    58 Is there a character archetype you like the most in Takahashi's works?

    The not-kid ones (and Emeralda). (Half of which were probably written by Soraya Saga for all I know.)

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    Re: Xeno meta series lore qustions + speculation

    Post by samarishim on Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:45 pm

    55 It's an individual mind's imprint in UMN, so assuming the CU and UMN have a connection somehow then the tech is just drawing that info out. I concur we haven't seen it used on any not android/realian personages. Does it work the same on "those within the norm of organics?" Come to think of it what was Canaan doing to get the Y-Data out of his head after Ep 2's prologue?
    56 They were built for to collect data to build MOMO, who was originally supposed to serve as Sakura's surrogate body. Both MOMO and the Kirschwassers then would have most likely been built sometime during Sakura's lifetime. I estimate 4741 as Sakura's birth and Momo was born 12 years after her (and given new purpose), so the Kirschwassers were likely made during that intermission.
    58 I gravitate toward KOS-MOS/Mary Magdalene and chaos archetype Enneagrams which are type 2 affectionate/sociable/self-sacrificial/grandiose and 9 (calm/makes people relax/inattentive/distant) respectively. Type 1, 6, and 8 have admirable traits but I don’t identify with them.
    I also empathize with Type 4 (self-expressive/quiet/introspective/tempermental) like Emerelda. Type 5 (detatched/analytical/extreme/convention-breaker) like Kevin or Krelian. It’s unfortunate that type 5’s tend to be the antagonists. But then again so are Type 3’s like Yuriev and Rasmus driven/efficient/conveniently principled/adaptable goal-oriented, ambitous, diplomatic, charming. Deep anxiety about personal value. So katimus are you also drawn to Yuriev?

    59 yes he always been interested in religion, I’m skeptical on him doing something like historical fiction or near future though. He has gunslinger characters who fit the cowboy persolaity who are likely Type 8's (brave/self-confident/coercive/confrontational) Bart/Jr but can he really do a Western?

    60. Considering the first two parts of the Xeno-series were supposed to be parts of a six part tale, what do you think of other video game narratives being told in this large scale episodic way? Shenmue was supposed to have 11 episodes. Is it a viable way to tell a story?

    61. What's your opinion on the term spiritual successor, how it applies to the Xeno meta series, and can it be compared to the reincarnation concept we're familiar with in the xeno-narrative ?

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