Xeno Fannage!


    -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Reichu
    Reichu

    Posts : 30
    Join date : 2015-02-28
    Location : J-Ark

    -Proper Noun- Preferences Empty -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Post by Reichu on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:13 pm

    With just a quick peek inside Perfect Works, or any perusal of Xenogears reference guides, it soon becomes apparent that a lot of the -Proper Nouns- were lost in translation. Sometimes this is minor (the official spelling "Bartholomei" is a Slavic variation on the more familiar version we got, "Bartholomew"), sometimes awkward ("Kalen" vs. "Karen" and "Karn" vs. "Khan"), and sometimes a whole literary reference is destroyed ("Krelian" instead of "Karellan").

    With so much variation to choose from, and any choice you make inevitably saying something about you as a fan, I was curious about the preferences of others. How do you go about Proper Nouning the Xenogears word? Is it based on what's in Honeywood's translation? This is a valid position, since it is the only official English translation available, and hence a common point of reference for everyone. Do you prefer to dig deeper, and substitute misspellings and orphaned references for the proper ones, perhaps as a way of enriching your own experience?

    I am perhaps a bit of a "truth-seeker" and have no real loyalties to the localization. When it's clear that a name or term was mangled, I feel I am under no obligation to use it. So: Krelian to Karellan, Gebler to Geburah, Seraph to Aeon, Anonelbe to Ahnenerbe, Kadomony to Kadmoni, Kelvena to Cherubina, and so forth. References should be preserved, I feel.

    Now, when it comes to some of the weird spellings in Perfect Works that don't seem immediately justified by anything, I'm a bit more lax. (The book can't even decide on a single spelling for Marguerite, so clearly a critical lens is needed.) In some cases, the spellings can be informative, but in others they just seem... weird and don't really add anything. For instance, I'm not sure what I gain from calling Fei's mom "Kalen", aside from seeing the name "Colin" in my head instead. But others are worth more consideration.

    For example, the name "Carlin" seems considerably more at home in front of the surname "Becker" than a Singh name like "Kahran" does, so it is difficult to argue with the idea that "Carlin" was always the intended spelling. However, training my brain to substitute "Kahr" with "Carl" is a whole other matter, probably on account of "Carl" sounding so mundane while the character clearly isn't.

    Another... interesting example is "Myyah". On the one hand, this is a nonsensical spelling. According to the katakana, her name is pronounced "Myan", hence the localization "Miang". (If you're going to write it as "Myyah", why in the world include an "n" sound? Wouldn't, I dunno, ミァー have made more sense?) So, yes, "Myyah" is a little difficult to accept, being as it kind of omits a whole consonant. On the other hand, the book goes to great lengths to make you notice that "Myyah" is part of "Elehayym" backwards. And the intentional omission of the "El-", or "God", component is a nice touch, probably referencing the fact that Elly is linked to Wave Entity, the true God, while poor Myyah is the will of the Demiurge.

    (I think for that last one, I will just take some liberties with head canon, and personally imagine that "Myyah" -- pronounced "myah" -- is the name of the entity whose factor exists in all woman, whereas "Miang" is the actual personal name of the last body, prior to Elly, that Myyah inhabits.)

    "Shitan" is one that I probably shouldn't be struggling with as much as I am. "Citan" looks and sounds awkward and doesn't "match" the surname Uzuki like Shitan does, so I have no real investment in it. But... it is very hard for me to say "Shitan" without thinking of Encyclopedia Dramatica's crude comment ("'Citan', pronounced 'shit on'") and feel self-conscious. Heck, I can't even type it without thinking of excrement. This is embarrassing.

    So, that terribly messy post aside, what are everyone's feelings on the -Proper Noun- matter?
    katimus_prime
    katimus_prime
    Administrator

    Rank : Sassmaster
    Posts : 2076
    Join date : 2012-12-16
    Age : 37
    Location : Baltimore

    -Proper Noun- Preferences Empty Re: -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Post by katimus_prime on Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:06 pm

    Personally, I think Carlin Ramsus is a really nice name, but since I really love the truncation to Kahr, I keep him Kahran in my writings, because I know too many people named Carl, and this skit from MTV's The State, though appropriate in reference to how Ramsus is treated, has ruined the name Carl for me forever - http://www.mtv.com/shows/mtv2_legit/service-with-a-smile/375198/video/ There's a lot of ways カーラン (literally Kaaran) can go, and I've toyed with naming characters things like Cairian in his honor, but if I tried to do that in conversation without explaining it in every single post I made, no one would get it.

    The only exception I'm making in my fic is using Cherubina instead of Kelvena, because it's the one that's seemed the most egregious to me since 11th grade, when I did my term paper on angels because of Xenogears.

    I haven't finished Childhood's End, but I see a very pointed difference between CE Karellen, who's a benevolent guide, and Krelian, who I see as a malevolent, friendzoned creep.  I don't dislike Karellen, but I heavily personally dislike Krelian, so I'm keeping the distance intentionally, even though I know it's a legit literary reference.

    As for the rest, I just tend to follow official translations so I can communicate a little more effectively. I'm aware of a lot of the differences, and I do think a lot of them are legit, but the more stops I make people make using alternate translations, the less I feel people are going to understand me.


    _________________
    -Proper Noun- Preferences I9uSaW6
    "There is no growth without birth.  Without a foothold in the past, we cannot walk toward the future.  Get thee gone, darkness!"
    RadicalDreamer
    RadicalDreamer

    Posts : 290
    Join date : 2013-06-20
    Age : 30
    Location : France

    -Proper Noun- Preferences Empty Re: -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Post by RadicalDreamer on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:48 pm

    "Carrrrllll, there is a dead human in our house. CAAAARRRRL, what did you do ?"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZUPCB9533Y
    I also like 'Carlin Ramsus/Becker' better than 'Kahran Ramsus/Becker'. But the "Carl" thing is legit hilarious.

    Honeywood did what he could, I think, knowing how the game almost didn't make it in the West because of the religious stuff and knowing that he was on his own when he translated the game.

    That said, some things were indeed lost in translation. Karellen is one of them, yes (and because it was never said, I will forever torture myself in wondering if Karellen/Krelian is his first or last name, ahah... oh well, I guess main villains aren't allowed to have both a first and last name... except for Kefka... and maybe Vayne from FF12). And some dialogues were awkwardly translated (and it had to be important cryptic dialogue lol... hi Gazel Ministry).
    But I have to admit certain original names (a lot of Hebrew ones) seem pretty strange to pronounce (if you're not hebrew yourself... or maybe I just feel this way because I'm used to the english translation, I dunno). Maybe that's why they were changed ?
    I got to say that I'm grateful for Cherubina becoming Kelvena or Throne becoming Tolone for example... mainly because the former seem so weird for actual names (Cherubina sounds cute though). And maybe it helps making the naming scheme less... obvious, you know.
    Talking about obvious... Lacan who ? Is that your first name or last name (lol for all we know, Grahf's first name is Jack... or Jacques if you prefer) ?


    Last edited by RadicalDreamer on Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Yikari
    Yikari

    Posts : 402
    Join date : 2013-10-29
    Age : 28

    -Proper Noun- Preferences Empty Re: -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Post by Yikari on Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:16 am

    Most of this went firmly above my head since I am not familiar with the source material being referenced.

    Still, I've got to say that just because something appears to conspiciously inherit its name from something else, it doesn't necessary means that author was trying to convey something through it. Oftentimes it is present there to either just make the more knowledgeable part of the audience notice it and think to themselves 'huh, that's neat' or to present an (often darkly ironic) contrast with that thing we are previously familiar with.

    I suppose one could argue that, being not well-read enough, I have no say in this argument. Okay, that's fair.

    But what about Bart's ultra-super-duper submarine being named after the world tree in norse mythology? Because, from where I'm standing, about the only possible reason I can see is 'it's a fucking cool name, mate, that's why'.

    What about everybody's mechs (and chu-chu -_-) hanging up on crosses, apparently nailed down, in a location with a religiously significant name? What's the deep significance of that one besides 'shits and giggles'?

    Why Elly's mech looks like it does? Is there some kind of hamfisted commentary about gender roles in society in there somewhere? Or maybe it's just that way because they are all members of a comic relief quirky miniboss squad and thus cannot appear even slightly serious?

    Why does Rico look like that one dude from Street Fighter? Does it add some untold but nonetheless interesting layer to either his character or story arc?

    That whole shebang with 'Ye shall be as Gods' making an appearance across multiple Xeno games? Why is it there? Is there some kind of connection I am missing? Or was it simply put in there as a nod to people who like to dissect pre-release trailers a bit too thoroughly? Very Happy

    XXX

    As a natively russian ear, I gotta say that 'Citan' (as in [k], not [s] in the beginning) looks and sounds awesome (and also kind of like the word we use for 'whale'), and there is nothing you could say to convince me otherwise.

    As for 'Uzuki' not matching it... It's a JRPG with the 'Aerith and Bob' trope in full effect, what do you want?
    Reichu
    Reichu

    Posts : 30
    Join date : 2015-02-28
    Location : J-Ark

    -Proper Noun- Preferences Empty Re: -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Post by Reichu on Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:33 pm

    @katimus_prime wrote:There's a lot of ways カーラン (literally Kaaran) can go
    When approaching a name in katakana, the first step is to see is whether or not a preexisting non-Japanese name is being used. Some are obvious on sight, but "Kaaran"... less so. Using Google magic, though, it is indeed a legitimate rendition of "Carlin" (all the top results were for a champagne, heh). What Honeywood used is also possible, since カーラン is used to write the Singh name Kahran, though it does lack the support of Perfect Works.

    I'm... still using Kahran, though, for the reasons already mentioned.  alien

    I haven't finished Childhood's End, but I see a very pointed difference between CE Karellen, who's a benevolent guide, and Krelian, who I see as a malevolent, friendzoned creep.
    That book has been sitting in my glove compartment for EVER. I really should read it soon. I've also finally realized that I was spelling "Karellen" wrong. DOH!

    As for the rest, I just tend to follow official translations so I can communicate a little more effectively.  I'm aware of a lot of the differences, and I do think a lot of them are legit, but the more stops I make people make using alternate translations, the less I feel people are going to understand me.  
    I've been struggling with this sort of thing for years, ever since I started checking the original text of things I like and being hammered with discrepancies. Part of my mind wants order and the elimination of discrepancies. Especially when said discrepancies are the result of simple error. Even so, communicating properly and not looking like an "elitist snob" is probably more important.

    Yikari: Well, I'm not going to say that the references are necessarily deep, but they were put into the game nonetheless and help add flavor if nothing else. If the name was intentionally used to reference a preexisting concept, I'd prefer that reference be maintained, rather than deal with a meaningless mass of vowels and consonants.

    A couple of good examples would be Kadomony and Anonelbe. As they are, they're just gibberish proper nouns. They're supposed to be Kadmoni and Ahnenerbe. The former is a reference to Adam Kadmon, the primordial man of Jewish mysticism, making the "Adam" of the Xenogears universe a bio-computer. The latter is some German word that they threw in to confuse us, but knowing that it's an actual word instead of a made-up one means there's a LITTLE less nonsense in Cain and Citan's conversations.

    @Yikari wrote:As a natively russian ear, I gotta say that 'Citan' (as in [k], not [s] in the beginning) looks and sounds awesome (and also kind of like the word we use for 'whale'), and there is nothing you could say to convince me otherwise.
    Sadly, Citan would be pronounced with an "s" sound. (The Japanese is "Shitan", not "Kitan".)

    As for 'Uzuki' not matching it... It's a JRPG with the 'Aerith and Bob' trope in full effect, what do you want?
    Admittedly, that was a flawed argument, since Uzuki is his assumed last name. BUT, recall that his original name is Hyuga Rikudou, which is seriously Japanese. Accordingly, the spelling "Shitan" used in Perfect Works would make more sense, because if not Japanese it is at least East Asian-sounding.

    RadicalDreamers: Most of the Hebrew names were actually kept, so I'd guess Honeywood just couldn't identify a couple and had to take a shot in the dark. (But changing Aeon to Seraph is a bit inexplicable...)

    What about the Hebrew names do you find intimidating? I guess, if it's any help, a lot of languages use the same basic five verbs (a-i-u-e-o). As an audio aid, here is a song reciting the Japanese equivalent , but it's basically the same for Hebrew, classic Latin, German, Spanish, Finnish, etc. This doesn't account for additional vowels, like diphtongs or "special characters", which have to be learned on a per-language basis, but it's generally quite useful.

    If I had to guess, I'd say that "Karellen" is either his surname or a mononym. Staying on a last-name basis with everyone is a symbolic way to avoid intimacy, after all. With "Lacan", for some reason I want to say "first name"... He was a vulnerable guy who just let it all hang out.

    Sponsored content

    -Proper Noun- Preferences Empty Re: -Proper Noun- Preferences

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:06 pm