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    Xenogears &Sexism

    RadicalDreamer
    RadicalDreamer

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    Post by RadicalDreamer on Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:45 am

    @Kire-Kitsune wrote:And I love Margie. Even if the whole thing between her and Bart is an uncomfortable parallel to Simba and Nala. (Come to think of it, that whole plot arc is similar to the Lion King...)

    I love you Laughing ! Seriously, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this.
    For the record, I'm glad Bart/Margie wasn't fully realized (though Perfect Works has a wedding picture). Still, those kind of marriage used to be common in royalty (and other places in the world) and it's judged more socially acceptable because it's not a brother/sister situation. I guess my problem though is that Bart and Margie always behaved more like siblings than love interests. I had the same opinion on Edward and Winry from FMA (first anime)... until Brotherhood surprisingly changed my mind.
    Their story didn't just remind me of the Lion King. They also remind me of Tancredi and his cousin Concetta from The Leopard (by Lampedusa... there was a movie adaptation by Visconti... though I prefer the book). They don't end up marrying each other in the story (though their family and the cousin wanted to).
    Yikari
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    Post by Yikari on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:56 pm

    Speaking of Ep. II getups, Jin is kind of wandering around in a bathrobe and slippers, chopping mecha, spec ops troops and alien space ghosts left and right for the most of the game. I didn't really think about it previously, but maybe it has more layers of meaning than I thought previously. (And wonder how he would look in a kilt, with a claymore in tow.)

    And Ziggy is, strictly speaking, wearing a snazzy shirt half-open and nothing else from the waist down. And mashing people in the face with his fiery kicks of hot-blooded fury. It's just less noticeable because all the mechanical parts are made in unisex. Very Happy
    RadicalDreamer
    RadicalDreamer

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    Post by RadicalDreamer on Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:32 pm

    @Yikari wrote:Speaking of Ep. II getups, Jin is kind of wandering around in a bathrobe and slippers, chopping mecha, spec ops troops and alien space ghosts left and right for the most of the game. I didn't really think about it previously, but maybe it has more layers of meaning than I thought previously. (And wonder how he would look in a kilt, with a claymore in tow.)

    And Ziggy is, strictly speaking, wearing a snazzy shirt half-open and nothing else from the waist down. And mashing people in the face with his fiery kicks of hot-blooded fury. It's just less noticeable because all the mechanical parts are made in unisex. Very Happy

    Yeah... that's the thing with Xeno games since the PS2... fanservice for everyone (and arguably, Xenogears has a gender reversed pervy shower scene while Fei can equip a wedding dress... but the latter hardly count because we can't see it... I don't count any of the nude scene as fanservice though... EXCEPT for Ramsus and the black speedos... damn I almost forgot, how could I lol... oh yeah, and there is this one scene where Fei stares at a naked Elly in a tube *that might be considered sort of naughty I guess, specially with Taura's comment*... and yeah and Dan being gross about his own sister... ugh Dan). Bless the swimsuit silliness because it makes things a bit more equal. Then followed the full outfit silliness with Xenoblade (half naked Dunban being more effective, being able to see under Reyn's jungle skirt... though both Sharla and Seven get much more sexualized outfits than they do *but I admit I don't really care in Xenoblade, the campiest, silliest they look, the more it amuses me... maybe because I don't take Xenoblade's world too seriously... I mean, Bionis and Mechonis are fun but they aren't realistic, believable worlds at all... however, using Ziggy's swinsuit in a serious Xenosaga scene is a mood ruiner for me*).
    Kire-Kitsune
    Kire-Kitsune

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    Post by Kire-Kitsune on Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:38 pm

    @RadicalDreamer wrote:Bless the swimsuit silliness because it makes things a bit more equal. Then followed the full outfit silliness with Xenoblade (half naked Dunban being more effective, being able to see under Reyn's jungle skirt... though both Sharla and Seven get much more sexualized outfits than they do *but I admit I don't really care in Xenoblade, the campiest, silliest they look, the more it amuses me... maybe because I don't take Xenoblade's world too seriously... I mean, Bionis and Mechonis are fun but they aren't realistic, believable worlds at all... however, using Ziggy's swinsuit in a serious Xenosaga scene is a mood ruiner for me*).

    I aways found the swimsuits funny and all in good fun. Ziggy having a snorkel and human parts kills me. And it doesn't change much for KOS-MOS, really. lol As to Xenoblade, as much as I love the game, some of the outfits are one of my only sore points with the game. Though, Sharla's outfits are silly, they do not compare to the heavy armor for Reyn. Oh dear, Reyn...what is that on your head? You look like a garbage truck backed up into you. I'm thankful that Tanaka-san is working on XBX. His armor, while still fanciful, looks like it will have more sensible wear in it. I would like the female party members (Especially Ms. Badass Elma) to not be dressed like exotic super models. And for my heavies to not look like we superglued random junk to their heads.

    Also I'm thankful I'm not the only one to notice the whole Aveh arc is The Lion King. lol I'm sure that wasn't intentional, but damn. All we needed were a few more anthropomorphic animals and a musical sequence and we'd be golden. Great, now Bart has Matthew Broderick's voice and everything has gotten really, really weird in my mind.


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    -Rod Serling, my hero.
    stitchedmoon
    stitchedmoon

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    Post by stitchedmoon on Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:58 pm

    @Yikari wrote:And Ziggy is, strictly speaking, wearing a snazzy shirt half-open and nothing else from the waist down. And mashing people in the face with his fiery kicks of hot-blooded fury. It's just less noticeable because all the mechanical parts are made in unisex. :D

    That is why I love his outfit/character design and I'm glad they didn't change it (I'm still pretending the swimsuits aren't canon).  There was a post on tumblr a while back where someone who hadn't played Xenosaga described him as "a man with a boob window." http://stitchedmoon.tumblr.com/post/84936920452/lioncid-baabaabelias-i-keep-seeing-this-guy

    I've got nothing intelligent to add to this discussion, so I'll just leave that there. ;P


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    Kire-Kitsune
    Kire-Kitsune

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    Post by Kire-Kitsune on Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:14 pm

    I love Ziggy's design. Then again, behind Rubedo, he's my favorite character. I love them tragic types, lol. I don't know why, but up till recently, I didn't even notice his boob window. Huh. He and Sharla must shop at the same store.


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    "I think the destiny of all men is not to sit in the rubble of their own making but to reach out for an ultimate perfection which is to be had. At the moment, it is a dream. But as of the moment we clasp hands with our neighbor, we build the first span to bridge the gap between the young and the old. At this hour, it’s a wish. But we have it within our power to make it a reality. If you want to prove that God is not dead, first prove that man is alive."

    -Rod Serling, my hero.
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    Nikkolas

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    Post by Nikkolas on Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:46 am

    Well I still completely disagree with how many of you define sexism. It's hardly something unique here either - I'm often forced to defend some Gundam series from the same accusations. I think intent does matter quite a lot. The desire to portray women as inherently good and benign is not a bad thing.

    Back when this thread started it was all about Xenogears vs. Xenosaga and how Saga does things better. Let's look to one Shion Uzuki, the bane of the Internet. She's absolutely detested and hated by people who otherwise like the  series. I don't agree with this viewpoint but it undeniably exists.

    Why? Why, if Saga is so much better than Gears, is there such an unfailingly negative view of Shin compared to someone like Elly? Is it because Shion is rather unpleasant most of the time? That she is rude and dismissive and even cruel on occasion?  That she temporarily joins the villains even though she's fully aware that her boyfriend is using her?

    I would say the obvious answer is "yes, that's precisely why people dislike her."

    So what we're saying is that a good non-sexist female character should be highly unlikable and co-dependent.

    And again, I like Shion a lot. I've just been in enough arguments about her - as we all have, probably - to know what people hate most about her. So I'm mildly bewildered there is such praise for something with someone who is so hated vs. such condemnation for a game who's female cast is either held in neutral or positive views. Miang tends to be seen as the best villain in the game. I myself hold this opinion.

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