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    The best form for Xenosaga ?

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    Valkyrie

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    The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Valkyrie on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:07 am

    Hi everyone,

    Just a little dream about Xenosaga :

    -Just imagine Monolith Soft is not controlled by Nintendo
    -Just imagine Monolith Soft has lots of money (well, maybe this is not a dream in fact...)
    -Just imagine Takahashi accepts to work on Xenosaga again, and to create a work that contains the entire story (Episode 1,2,3 , Pied Piper, A missing Year, Xenosaga I.II on DS).

    Then, what will be the best form for this work ?
    I mean :
    1) a game ? Then on which console ? Consoles become obsolete so quickly these days...
    2) a novel ? Then with images or not ? Will it need a glossary at the end or not ?
    3) a comics or a manga ? Will it need a glossary at the end or not ?
    4) an anime ?
    5) an OAV ?

    Concerning the ideas 2), 3), 4) and 5), there is also this question : Which character design to use ? Episode 1,2,3 ? Or maybe a new one ?

    I know many fans long for a remake of Xenosaga, but the fact is that it is not so simple to create one which contains all the elements of the script.

    P.S. : I am talking about a remake of Xenosaga, not a sequel like an Episode IV.
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    Valkyrie

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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Valkyrie on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:09 am

    Valkyrie wrote :
    Concerning the ideas 2), 3), 4) and 5), there is also this question : Which character design to use ? Episode 1,2,3 ? Or maybe a new one ?

    Oops, my mistake... Of course this question also concerns the idea 1)...
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    kare_reiko
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by kare_reiko on Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:17 am

    For remake I would say game or anime.

    I start with anime, I wouldn't mind if it would be ova, today's graphic level for some titles like Tales of Symphonia Ova, Clannad anime, so making Xenosaga looking like that would be amazing looking like that:





    As for official anime, I like it but graphic was more then bad in many places.

    As for game, what ep3 show was amazing for me and I wouldn't mind remake for all Xenosaga parts in this way. All in full CG of Xenosaga ep3 style would make me really happy Smile.


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    Valkyrie

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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Valkyrie on Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:45 am

    kare_reiko :
    I start with anime, I wouldn't mind if it would be ova, today's graphic level for some titles like Tales of Symphonia Ova, Clannad anime, so making Xenosaga looking like that would be amazing looking like that:

    Yeah sure, but you know Monolith Software could also make an anime entirely in 3D images, just like the film "Appleseed" (cell-shining) and its sequel "Appleseed EX MACHINA" (no cell-shining). Both are very good-looking, especially for the mechas.

    By the way, where do you find those images ?
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    kare_reiko
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by kare_reiko on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:07 am

    ^ Find them on some Japanese fan sites, they are fan arts.

    Well if it was 3d project I would rather get full game Wink


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by stitchedmoon on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:16 am

    Man, that's a tough question. I kind of think that, given the intended scope of the story and the depth of world-building that went into it, it'd probably work best as sort of a cross-platform, multimedia/format expanded universe thing (assuming they had the money and resources to pull it off, right?), like .hack or even Star Wars, where the main story could be released in one format (games or anime or whatever) with a lot of the side chapters covered in more detail elsewhere. Which I guess is kind of what they tried to do anyway between the DS and cellphone game(s) and the anime and comics, but it just seemed sort of contradictory and uncoordinated like they were trying to cram too much into EVERYTHING instead of spreading it out in a way that made sense, y'know? Like, too many important things got relegated to being textwalls in the database to make way for less important things (probably because their original plans for the series got cut to bits, but yeah).

    IDK, there's easily enough (underdeveloped) material in Xenosaga to build a vast multimedia behemoth if the creators had free reign to follow their dreams, and what's more cool and futuristic than a story that transcends the boundaries of its own media? *w*


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by katimus_prime on Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:43 pm

    I was thinking originally they should put XSIII's interface on XSI and II and make one big game that was about the same size and length of Xenogears, but Stitched's idea leaves a lot more creative freedom to it. :D Ideally, I'd like to be able for everything to tie into the main story just a little better (more relevance added to the Ariadne plotline and one canon timeframe placed on it, Richard and Hermann have in-game character sprites and portraits, and Orgulla isn't cut out, but everything that was added to the DS game still in (if it's not mutually exclusive) fully fleshed out in PS2 awesomeness).

    Now, I say PS2 instead of PS3/PS4 because I'd rather them get the interface and gameplay nailed down before expending energy on stuff like prerendered cutscenes. Maybe farm out the prerendered scenes to another company that still can pull off the same look so the main team focuses on the game?

    An accurate and complete anime series would be very nice, and a completion of the XSI manga into XSII and III by Baba would be much nicer. Making a game out of the Missing Year and something a little bigger than a visual novel for Xenosaga Freaks, and something bigger than a cell phone game of Pied Piper, maybe those could be in-game unlockable sidestories? (Also I hate to say it, but DLC? I would totally pay for any Xenosaga DLC ever.)

    Is it bad that I want an all-cast 2D Xenosaga fighting game? Because I totally want an all-cast 2D Xenosaga fighting game. Like, hire the Guilty Gear guys and stuff. I would never put it down.

    As for character designs, my first instinct is to go with XSI's character designer, but find a way to make everyone's cheeks just a little less puffy? Like a re-modeling that makes them more believable and closer to XSIII's sprites, but retains more of Tanaka's original designs than the XSIII ones.

    Also also, figures of all the characters. And I don't mean just the Player Characters. Everyone with a unique in game model, every mech and every ship at least gets something small and cheap. All the URTVs and 100 series, all the Ormus kids, all of Ziggy's peeps, all of Shion's team. Everyone ever.


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Yikari on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:52 pm

    Personally, I'm not too sure about 3d models in anime; sure, Appleseed has some very nice eye-candy shots, but the majority of anime that use this end up having way too simple models with really jerky animations. It looked awesome in Reboot because it was positively ground-breaking at the time, but when a movie is released nowadays but looks even worse than that, it goes beyond 'artistic style' straight into the 'crap' territory. At least, from what I've seen with my own eyes - can't say I'm knowledgeable on the subject.

    On the topic of character design, in a good deal of cases my answer for that would be "Ep. II" simply because I found the eyes' placement a bit too wide on many faces in both Ep. I and III. At first I thought there was some kind connection between how a character looked and their role in the story (proportions seem wrong => the character was 'adjusted' biologically in some way) but I haven't been able to find any concrete evidence of anything like that.

    XXX

    As for the games themselves... I don't have much to nitpick about the 'dungeon' areas, but the vast majority of non-combat locales were criminally small, in my opinion. "A narrow corridor with a liberal amount of cutscene triggers thrown in" is a common complaint I believe.

    It is certainly not the first (nor the last) game to be made this way, it could be even argued that there is not much deviation to be had from this approach when making a JRPG, yes. But! Can you remember, let's say, FFVII? It could be called a 'corridor with cutscenes' too, but did it seem that way when you first played it? Why more and more games seem to follow the FFX approach - an even more blatant case of linear level design than Xenosaga - and not FFVII?

    Why is it when I want to play a game that lets me roam the landscape even a tiny little bit I have to load up Skyrim, Far Cry 2, GTA, Space Rangers, Gothic and the like but the Xenosaga universe - a setting that certainly looks like it has enough things to tell me via exploration alone - leaves me with tiny cramped spaces the size of my flat?

    Gloriously detailed cinematics don't add even a one-tenth of gameplay value even one solidly built 'town' area would - a much better way to spend those gigabytes of disk space, I'd say. Or even just enough space to make the party characters no longer sit around on their hands when their comrades are getting butchered right in front of them, for christ's sake! There is also absolutely no need to voice-act every single line of dialogue in this kind of game either, those are just a huge sink of time, money and space that could spent elsewhere.

    Xenosaga has too much 'Worf Effect', to use tvtropes' lingo. Those scenes where hundreds of ships with untold amount of faceless mooks get blown up by the newest Death Star equivalent? ~95% of them could be thrown out and nothing of value to the narrative would be lost. A party member gets a faceful of bullet? They'll be fine, nothing to worry about - unless they happen to be Ziggy or KOS-MOS, of course. But even in their case, did anyone in the audience doubt that they'll be rebuilt anew just in time to tank the next thrashing?

    Those would be the things to be looked at first and foremost if Xenosaga Ep. I-III were to be remade, in my opinion.

    XXX

    As for something completely new... I'd say it could be cool if those spin-off games meant to fill the gaps via one specific character's POV instead of the party as a whole played differently.

    For example, investigation work interspersed with bodyguard duty, infiltration and simply all-around 'tactical espionage action' Ziggy and/or Jin are likey to get involved in could play like Deus Ex / Thief / Splinter Cell / Dishonored / whatever.

    Rubedo's part, depending on whether he'd go in alone or would command a platoon's worth of (mecha)nised infantry, would play either like bona-fide Max bloody Payne or turn-based (Front Mission?) / real-time (Ground Control?) tactic game. Or maybe something in-between in terms of scale; let's say small squad based counter-terrorist action akin to SWAT or Payday.

    KOS-MOS would need some serious vertical freedom of movement if she ever starred in an action game. Whether it'd take the form of 'climb anything' like how Prince of Persia (the newer ones) / Assasin's Creed / Mirror's Edge do it or some sort of 'super jumping' like some of the Armored Core games or something, I don't know. If there would be some open field mecha action involved, Gun Metal could serve as inspiration.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3SGox9P6Bc

    Guilty pleasures like wishing for a Xenosaga fighting game akin to Guilty Gear?

    Well, first off a good ol' beat-em-up like Street Rage or Golden Axe but spruced up with capabilities of modern systems is, in my opinion, an obvious option.

    Something like a VN but with actual gameplay other than reading heaps of text would be nice, IMHO. Sengoku Rance comes to mind (in terms of how the game's event system works, not the abundant H-content).
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by stitchedmoon on Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:50 am

    @katimus_prime wrote:Is it bad that I want an all-cast 2D Xenosaga fighting game?  Because I totally want an all-cast 2D Xenosaga fighting game. Like, hire the Guilty Gear guys and stuff. I would never put it down.

    ...

    Also also, figures of all the characters.  And I don't mean just the Player Characters.  Everyone with a unique in game model, every mech and every ship at least gets something small and cheap.  All the URTVs and 100 series, all the Ormus kids, all of Ziggy's peeps, all of Shion's team. Everyone ever.

    [sparkle]DO WANT YES PLEASE AND THANK YOU. *w*[/sparkle]

    And Yikari, I agree with your point about making the environments more open-ended and explorable.  I remember thinking the first time I played Ep I that the aesthetic was really cool but the world felt really narrow and constrained and lost some of its immersiveness that way.  (Like, I kept wishing I could fly the Elsa around and explore space a little, but even being able to walk around more in, say, the Foundation or something would have made it feel more real and not like a couple of stage backdrops set up as points on a map.)  Even just giving the player the illusion of more freedom would be acceptable. C:


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by katimus_prime on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:34 pm

    A more immersive world would be a great idea.

    Also, re: cel-styled 3D model anime, there have been advancements in those - See Disney's Tron: Uprising. All of those models were very heavily designed and redesigned to work with the 3D cel style, but Tron generally has a very dark, dramatically lit, homogenous environment with a limited color scheme. I think in terms of most animated materials, I prefer hand drawn 2D animation.


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Valkyrie on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:53 am

    Well well I am happy that my topic become rather popular :nice:

    You know, English is not my native language, so I didn't understand everything people wrote. However it's quite interesting to see the opinion of each one.

    To my mind, I think the best form would be a manga or a comic with a little glossary at the end of each volume. This way, readers can take their time to understand complex ideas of the story. It is also convenient to explain acronyms (and there are so much in Xenosaga...). And there are so many organisations...
    For example in Episode II CD2, when Jin explains how Ormus have manipulated Joachim Mizrahi, I must admit that I needed to pause frequently the cutscene so as to understand well. And of course I needed to re-watch it at least one more time.
    An anime is OK, but surely you will not understand completely the first time you watch, unless you pause frequently. The text is quite important in Xenosaga...

    katimus wrote :
    Is it bad that I want an all-cast 2D Xenosaga fighting game? Because I totally want an all-cast 2D Xenosaga fighting game. Like, hire the Guilty Gear guys and stuff. I would never put it down.

    Funny that you talk about this, since the first time I see KOS-MOS and the first time I heard about Xenosaga, it was watching this video (I am fan of Valkyrie Profile) :
    ....OOps, it seem that this video has disappeared recently. Ah too bad. Sigh... :frown3:
    Well, this one is a bit similar :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j_t0qeAdjQ

    I was so impressed that I did my own video after this :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCom7ULqIb0

    Surely a 2D fighting game would be fun. Monolith Software and Namco did some games with KOS-MOS which are quite good, but they are tactics or turn-by-turn games if I remember correctly (Project X Zone for example). Personnally, I would enjoy playing a Street Fighter-like game with Xenosaga characters.

    P.S. : My pseudo is a tribute to Lenneth Valkyrie of Valkyrie Profile.
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Yikari on Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:24 am

    Eh, I'm not exactly a native speaker myself. Whatever I know of the language comes from a variety of different sources all cobbled together in my mind into something that anyone else may have a problem with. So don't hesitate to ask for clarification if a part of what I've written appears as an incomprehensible gibberish to your eyes and press it until I've managed to translate from 'Yikari' to 'general human use' - it won't hurt my feelings any. Very Happy

    (Ahh, I remember that one time I've surprised my English teacher with that "smell ya later" line from the first-gen Pokemon games translation. Those were the days...)
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by kare_reiko on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:46 pm

    I like to add, for my choice of art style if Xenosaga was remake as anime, that Xenosaga DS has amazing graphic style in their drawings. From all official anime style Xenosaga things I liked DS one the most.


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Tehrin on Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:22 pm

    Most impossible reality: I want a live-action movie, or rather series. It could be made all shiny by special effects. Hire the best actors that look as close to the characters as possible. Just win the lottery and throw money at them to make this. *_*

    In book or comic/manga format would be great too. I just want to see the entire original planned story and more of my favorite characters. ;_;
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by stitchedmoon on Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:12 pm

    ^ As much as I'm afraid it would turn out, like, Shyamalan-Avatar bad (or live-action Dragonball bad? *shudders*) if they goofed it up, I really really want to see what a live-action Xenosaga would look like. I think if I went to the theater and saw a trailer for it I'd just run around screaming and flailing until they kicked me out of the movie.


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Guest on Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:15 am

    I guess would really just like to see alternative-forms of the story we know and love-- I'm (shockingly!?) satisfied with the ending we got, so I really would just like to see the world... "expanded on" or "played with" instead of "continued" or "altered."


    i.e. 2D FIGHTING GAME YES PLEASE??? Any sort of fighting game really. In the meantime, I'll just continue fiddling away with my customs Xenos I've made in Soul Calibur V...
    Or, as Stitched said, a live action movie series that doesn't get Shyamalan'd.

    If there were to be a continuation, I would probably prefer something more involved with Shion and Co. Lost Jerusalem-- the whole "10,000 years later" thing and "end of the universe"

    kinda freaks me out. Not sure my poor heart could handle that kind of sadness, let alone the fact that most of the cast we've come to love would be long dead... D:
    I think I would really enjoy a series of vignettes or whatever about Shion and co, and MOMO and co. and all of that...? Maybe like... little animations/OVAs, or something.

    My sister and I also often talk excitedly of a hypothetical "POLITICAL VISUAL NOVEL" where you play as Gaignun and navigate your way through politics of the Kukai Foundation, from its formation up through the end of Episode I-ish.  Obviously, that will never happen, but y'all can't stop me from dreaming! (And if you really wanted to get funky with it, make it a dating sim. too. I don't imagine Gaignun having the best luck with relationships though, because all of them would probably end badly. Imagine the "true route" being Jr. or something-- and the climax of that would be Gaignun utterly failing to express his feelings and sulking off to a corner... oh my poor baby. Okay, I'll shut up now.)
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Yikari on Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:14 am

    Gaignun starring in a VN with maybe some actual gameplay? I'd say 'YES, PLEASE!' and tear it off your hands, complete with your hands. Nothing would stop it from using dating sim mechanics regardless of the text content. It could even be one, showing his attempts to adapt to 'civilian life' or something in a funny but sad way.

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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Guest on Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:00 am

    ^ Oh nooo, you hurt me! I didn't think it was possible, but want this even more now, ahhhh! Who do I have to bribe to make this happen? Can I pay them in tears????
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:00 pm

    I hear Ren'Py is relatively user-friendly and Tara has very kindly ripped the XSII Sprites. /jig


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Guest on Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:18 pm

    Oh no. Ohhhhhhh no
    I'm
    I'm gonna do the thing, aren't I?
    I am
    Oh god
    What if I did
    shit
    ohooooohhhhh no
    I can wave goodbye to having a life.
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    Yikari

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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Yikari on Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:38 am

    I would very much want to help, but... it's not like I can actually do something helpful. Maybe serve as a test audience or a sounding board for the text content, but that's about it. Sad
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by stitchedmoon on Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:59 am

    QuiteBrilliantIndeed wrote:Oh no. Ohhhhhhh no
    I'm
    I'm gonna do the thing, aren't I?
    I am
    Oh god
    What if I did
    shit
    ohooooohhhhh no
    I can wave goodbye to having a life.

    YES PLS DO THE THING ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY


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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:02 am

    Maybe it's just personal bias, but I've always thought that Xenosaga would work well as a series of novels. You could still get a great story without worrying about bad voice actors, battle systems, or graphics changes, and you could-possibly-focus on more characters. I personally wouldn't include images in the book like light novels do, but I would keep the clothes more consistent-everyone's clothes would be the same for both Episode One and Two and would only change during Episode Three when a significant amount of time has passed.

    Also, using a novel format would allow someone to mix in the Outer File scenes, A Missing Year, and scenes from the DS game that helped give more background on the characters. It would also open up the door for possible prequel novels-what chaos, Mary, and Wilhelm were doing during that time and what their relationships were like, how humanity found the Zohar and messed with it-things like that. It would also be possible for someone to convert Pied Piper into a novel so that more people read it and learned about what went on a hundred years before we see Shion on the Woglinde.

    I'm probably not making much sense, since I'm low on sleep, but I think it would be interesting to see something like this, even if you would have to include a glossary at the beginning or end of each book to explain some terms and political groups.
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by Valkyrie on Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:02 pm

    MemoriesofMiltia  wrote :
    Maybe it's just personal bias, but I've always thought that Xenosaga would work well as a series of novels. You could still get a great story without worrying about bad voice actors, battle systems, or graphics changes, and you could-possibly-focus on more characters. I personally wouldn't include images in the book like light novels do, but I would keep the clothes more consistent-everyone's clothes would be the same for both Episode One and Two and would only change during Episode Three when a significant amount of time has passed.

    Also, using a novel format would allow someone to mix in the Outer File scenes, A Missing Year, and scenes from the DS game that helped give more background on the characters. It would also open up the door for possible prequel novels-what chaos, Mary, and Wilhelm were doing during that time and what their relationships were like, how humanity found the Zohar and messed with it-things like that. It would also be possible for someone to convert Pied Piper into a novel so that more people read it and learned about what went on a hundred years before we see Shion on the Woglinde.

    I'm probably not making much sense, since I'm low on sleep, but I think it would be interesting to see something like this, even if you would have to include a glossary at the beginning or end of each book to explain some terms and political groups.

    Well it is an interesting point of view...
    It's true that Xenosaga Episode 1 is by nature that we call a "space opera", so removing all the "Hollywoodian" aspects (orchestral musics, spectacular battles in space...) could be a shame.

    However I think the novel form is quite good.

    In Xenosaga the dialogs are very very long and numerous, so :
    -in a video game, it's frustrating because you can't play during the cutscenes and dialogs
    -in an anime or a manga, it's necessary to cut the dialogs drastically. Otherwise there will be tons of image where all we can see is the characters talking, slowing the rythm of the story. Also it's a little boring for the reader.

    But in a novel, you don't have to worry about this ! No need to cut in the original script, just as the staff of Episode 2 did.

    At last, what is the most interesting is the fact that anybody could create this novel now. In fact, all the required contents are available (online or directly extracted from the games). It's just a work of copy-pasting in a Word document then. Well, it will probably require to write some descriptions of the areas and the characters, and to recruit a drawer for the pictures, but...well...Is it not a wonderful project to do ? Anybody motivated to do such a novel ?
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    Re: The best form for Xenosaga ?

    Post by stitchedmoon on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:09 am

    I think there have been efforts toward a fan-novelization of all or parts of Xenosaga (I seem to recall a Pied Piper one a few years back?), but I haven't heard much about them in a while.


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