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    Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconscious



    Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconscious

    Post by Guest on Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:55 pm

    Title says all,I'm interested in knowing who/what is behind those three topics in Xenosaga,does anyone have a clue about it?


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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga;U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Neosmith on Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:55 pm

    Would you mind clarifying exactly what you mean? For instance, when you say "common subconscious", do you mean "collective unconscious"?


    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga;U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Guest on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:20 pm

    Yes I do.Anything else you guys would want to be explained?Just say it I don't mind Smile

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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:32 pm

    Let's see if I remember this correctly with the study guide down.
    There's the higher domain and the lower domain. The collective unconscious resides in the higher domain (I think?), and its deterioration will cause the collapse of the lower domain. The will to split with the collective unconsciousness is heavily involved with the Gnosis phenomenon, and brings the lower domain closer to collapse. chaos exists as a failsafe to guard the lower domain from collapse, and Wilhelm was trying to cause the collapse so that the recurrence would happen (his maneuvering of Kevin and Shion, driving the actions behind the Zohar Link Experiment with Ariadne).

    I am a terrible Xeno student. I have failed the closed book quiz.


    "There is no growth without birth.  Without a foothold in the past, we cannot walk toward the future.  Get thee gone, darkness!"


    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Guest on Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:15 pm

    Well,if it cheers you katimus,I never even readed it nor took such quiz,but from what I remember you're correct.What I mainly mean is,who gave this a theorical base?Freud,Nietzsche,Bauman,Jung...?About the eixistence of collective subconscious and maybe it being divided into domains.


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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Neosmith on Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:58 pm

    If you're really interested this, you should read my article on the UMN and the Universe Collapse. I could repost it here, as Tensei is still down. But I'd need time to format it properly, as it's pretty big.


    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Guest on Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:35 pm

    No problem,post it here when you're done,and thanks!

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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by stitchedmoon on Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:03 pm

    I'd be interested in seeing your article as well, Neo. :>

    @Omega, it's been a while since I read up on this, but I believe the concept of the unus mundus/collective unconscious was Jung's? Dunno if he ever mentioned it being separated into domains the way the universe is divided in Xenosaga, tho. I seem to recall the UMN in Xenosaga being specifically located in the imaginary number half of the lower domain, while the upper domain was a separate thing where U-DO resided, or something like that. :B The Perfect Guide had some illustrations of this, but I haven't looked at it in a while.



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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Neosmith on Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:56 pm

    There are multiple conflicting schemas and histories for the UMN and the CU.

    This was particularly something that AC couldn't accept and so decided to invent his own schema, which he then asserted to have been the correct schema from the beginning. I'll repost it here later this week, if I have the time.

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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga;U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by stitchedmoon on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:58 am

    Ah, I think I remember you mentioning that in one of your articles too.  Seems like they changed a lot of stuff mid-series man, Xenosaga has more contradictions than the Bible, so I was mainly going by what I read on the Ep III database and Perfect Guide. I'm not as clear on the earlier incarnations of the thing. :B

    Last edited by stitchedmoon on Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total



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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Neosmith on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:31 pm

    Alrighty, I'm gonna start reposting these but I'll need to rework the formatting later.

    The Unus Mundus Network

    One of the fundamental concepts of Xenosaga is the Unus Mundus Network or UMN. Essentially a sci-fi extension of the contemporary internet, it is a network that allows among other things for instantaneous communication across the universe, virtual reality and hyperspace travel.

    I’️m pretty sure many fans of the series believe that the network’️s conception has been pretty consistent throughout the series.

    In fact, over the course of three main PS2 games, the Unus Mundus Network’️s backstory and definition had undergone vast conceptual changes, particularly in its relation to the concept of the Collective Unconscious (CU).

    Let’️s begin with the history of the UMN, most of which would become available only through their various supporting guides. (The PS2 Episode I database does not share any historical information on the subject, whereas PS2 Episode II does not have a database at all.)

    Under the OE1C Vector Industries had developed the UMN. Development had begun towards the end of the 21st century sometime after the discovery of the Original Zohar (OZ) in Lake Turkana. The ODM establishes a direct connection between the UMN and the OZ in that the purpose of the network “…in the first place was the control and management of the Zohar” (ODM, p. )

    However, the network was not finished on Earth due to the Zohar beginning a space-time anomaly/local matter shift that gradually caused the disappearance of mankind. So it continued to be developed aboard one of the space fleets that fled from Earth. Of course, most Xeno-lore fans know that there were two major Fleets that escaped – one would form the Federation and the Other would form Ormus/Immigrant Fleet.

    Admittedly, it is a little difficult to tell from the translations of the ODM on precisely which fleet –Federation or Ormus- the UMN continued development, because the UMN entry translation in the ODM states: “…after escaping the Earth the development was continued on the immigrant (this word can also mean emigrant) fleet and the initial stages of the UMN were planned.”

    The word Immigrant as we would find out in the PS2 Episode II would be associated with Ormus, implying that the Ormus Fleet was the one to have the UMN development continue. However, this doesn’️t seem to be correct, as Vector was responsible for its development and would ultimately hand over the reins of the network to the Federation.

    As such, the word in question must mean ‘emigrant’️ and does not relate to Ormus/Immigrant Fleet. This is supported by the translation of the “Government and Politics” entry of the ODM, which states that the survivors of Earth that would form the Federation “quickly boarded an emigrant ship bound for the opposite end of the Universe” (ODM, p.).

    Notably, the ODM omits certain crucial details. For one thing, there is no specification as to how exactly the UMN was meant to control the OZ, though I believe that this might be connected to the original conception of U-DO – a thought I will return to in a later column. For another, there is no detailing of when exactly the UMN was formally finished and launched, leaving open various possibilities.

    Given that only the initial stages of the present day UMN were purportedly constructed onboard the Proto-Federation Ship under the OE1C, we could surmise that the UMN would only conclude its development following the end of the Journey from Earth to the new colonies that would compose the Federation in the future. However, this is debatable, given that the journey from Earth purportedly took “several hundred years to reach its destination” (ODM, p.64-65) and so it is theoretically possible that within that time, the network might’️ve been developed onboard the Proto-Fed-ship. In any case, it was only after humankind left Earth that the UMN would finish its development.

    As such, while providing some a lot of substantial background details on the Network, the Sourcebook leaves certain obvious ‘gaps’️ of crucial information, suggesting that these gaps may be potential plot points to be explored in the future. One thing that becomes clear however, is that Vector Ind., being the financier of the Masuda Expedition and the UMN developer, has a vested interest in controlling the Zohar, though why exactly (within this continuity context at least) remains unknown. The ODM’️s UMN entry ends by saying that “…it is not certain how similar the current day UMN is to the original plans and objectives.”

    Now, this history remains stable all the way up through the RE2C. The Episode II Complete Guide (E2CG) pretty much reiterates the ODM’️s history of the UMN development:

    “The UMN is being operated and managed by the Galaxy Federation Government, but it is Vector Industries that developed it. The launch of the UMN development extends back approximately 4000 years to the end of the 21st century. After it became unavoidable for humanity to escape from the Earth's radius due to the local matter shift in the aftermath of the Zohar excavation, research continued onboard the emigrant ship, and afterwards, the initial stages of the UMN was constructed.

    Presently, it is the UMN that permeates the every-day life of citizens, but it is being said that the expectation of Vector, the original developer, was for control and management of the Zohar that used this. Nothing at all is being made clear about the previously existing purpose that implemented the control of the Zohar, which is an object of enormous energy.”

    From the history of its development as presented in the OE1C and the RE2C, the UMN was clearly conceived as a technological construct, a man-made network that did not exist until after the Zohar was discovered on Earth during the year 20xx.

    Not that many specifics over the course of the games would appear as to how the network actually functions. Certainly, we do receive information on such things as the EPR Paradox and the UMN Control Center, columns, porters but the ‘how-does-it-all-work’️ aspects wouldn’️t really be delved into. Partially this can be attributed to the fact that the main characters wouldn’️t really be at all interested in the UMN itself, at least not until the events of A Missing Year.

    Some might wonder as to whether or not the UMN has any in-game historical connection to the Internet and though the source books for the first two games do not specify, we could assume the internet to have been a UMN precursor, due to the similarities between the two “networks”. From that, one could also assume that the UMN should arguably function via the use of such things as servers, modems and routers and possess ‘core routers’️ or some sort of ‘core structure’️ as the internet does.

    Episode 3 directly confirms the former. During the break-in to S-Line Division, the main characters have to access secret information via a UMN server:

    [Shion’️s group returns and activates the main terminal.]

    Information: Logging in to the main server.

    [Suddenly, the area from the distance with the mechanical parts forms. Shion’️s
    group is transported to Sector 5, Main Server Room. Inside…]

    Shion: We made it to Sector 5, Main Server Room. I wonder how much information
    is processed here. But this is only the local server for Miltia space. What
    exactly is the U.M.N. that’️s laid out throughout the star cluster? Oh, the
    current mission objective is to acquire the top secret data. Let’️s access it
    through that terminal.

    We can also confirm that the UMN was conceptualized with possessing a ‘core’️ via the ODM entry on U-DO, which establishes that U-DO under the OE1C “serves as the core of the UMN” (p.135, http://odm.xenotensei.com/translations/pg135.txt ), and a corroboration in Pied Piper Chapter 3 during a confrontation between Jan Sauer and Erich Weber (which I will attribute to the RE2C, as it was developed in tandem with the PS2 Episode II and released only a month after.)

    In Pied Piper the following dialogue exchange takes place:

    Erich: It started with a trivial event. Driven by my curiosity, I invaded the U.M.N. root data.

    Lactis: You mean you hacked into the U.M.N.’️s core structure? Isn’️t that dangerous!?

    Erich: It is. Even I knew it was a stupid thing to do. That place is a Pandora’️s box that must never be opened by humans. With every second that passes, the program’️s structure evolves. Trying to understand it, I dove over and over, day and night, until I couldn’️t even recognize my own existence anymore.

    This dialogue, along with the Complete Guide, would establish that as of the RE2C, the UMN was still viewed as a genuine, technological network that possesses a ‘core’️. Of course, there are already some discrepancies here between the ODM and Pied Piper in their discussion of the UMN ‘core’️ in that Pied Piper would establish U-DO not as the core itself but as a separate entity that apparently resides within the core, but that is a discussion for another time, as U-DO is a huge topic in and of itself. Thus, at this point Yonesaka and Arai would for the most part maintain the original conception of the network as envisioned in Takahashi’️s original plan.

    I currently can’️t account for the DSC due to lack of information. (In fact, if anyone could possibly translate a UMN database entry from the DS, it would be most appreciated.)

    Things, however, would change radically at the time of the RE3C. Again, let’️s begin with the history.

    According to the E3 database, the UMN “…was developed by Vector after Lost Jerusalem disappeared;

    its administration was then handed over to the Galaxy Federation. However, no records remain from its development period, so there is no way to verify any of the details.” Additional info comes courtesy of the entry on the “Special Technology Advancement Division”, which “…researched the structure of a space-wide network and developed the foundations of the U.M.N..”

    Arguably, more clues can be gleamed from the entry on Dimitryi Yuriev, which describes him as a “…test subject in a living matter transportation experiment conducted in the earliest days of the U.M.N.”. If Dimitryi Yuriev is at least 300 years old, judging from the comment he made to Sellers in the game about being several hundred years old and the various supporting documents, this entry would situate the launching of the T.C.-era UMN perhaps somewhere within the T.C. 4300s at the latest.

    As such, while sharing some background info, the database remains for the most part mum on the details of the UMN history. This is in stark contrast to the more detailed history/development entries of the ODM and E2CG.

    While the notion of the UMN’️s development as having concluded after the disappearance of Earth remains consistent with the previous two continuities, there is no longer any confirmation that its development actually began before the disappearance. Furthermore, any connection that the UMN had had with the OZ is now absent, thus divorcing the concept of the network from the concept of controlling the Zohar. Finally, the scant details offered can’️t be even verified, which leaves the ‘truth’️ of the matter ambiguous.

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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga;U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Neosmith on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:32 pm

    Why exactly would there be a need to keep the UMN history vague, when its original history had been fairly specific?
    Because by the time we get to the RE3C, the notion that the UMN’s original purpose to control the OZ would no longer be applicable and that other related storylines and concepts had been changed for one reason or another. This should become evident when the game presents Joachim Mizrahi’s revelation that

    “The Unus Mundus Network, just as its name implies, is a collective subconscious that's existed since the moment the universe was born. It's a fundamental part of nature.”

    NOTE: Though Mizrahi states "subconscious", the term is otherwise referred to as "Collective Unconscious". As such, that is there term used for the duration of this essay.

    No wonder then as to why the E3 database provides only a minimum of detail on the development history of the network and claims that the details available are unverifiable. Under the new canon of the RE3C, the UMN was technically never really developed. Mizrahi’s assertion is that the UMN has always existed and that it was not man-made but fundamental. Thus, mankind was responsible not for the creation of the UMN, but apparently for the technology that allows one to utilize it.

    A problem however arises with Mizarahi’s revelation that the UMN is actually a CU when we factor in the RE3C sourcebooks and other entries in the E3 Database. Namely, there doesn’t appear to be a consensus as to what exactly the relationship between the UMN and the CU is. Some entries in the E3 database corroborate Mizrahi’s words, referring to the UMN and the CU interchangeably.

    For example, the UMN entry claims:
    “Unus Mundus” refers to C.G. Jung’s theory of the collective unconscious… it refers to a collective unconscious network where human consciousness are overlaid with and rendered alongside the network.”

    Similarly, the Vessel of Anima entry says that Mary’s body was “dispersed across the area of the collective unconscious–in other words the U.M.N..”.

    However, the KOS-MOS entry refers to the CU as specifically the ‘deep memory’ portion of the UMN:
    “…actions in one portion of the U.M.N., the deep memory–that is to say, the collective unconscious– are equivalent to those in the real world…”

    Another definition arises in the entry for the “Central Nervous Systems Disorder”, which defines the UMN as a “cleft between the real world and imaginary space”. Yet this definition is virtually identical to that of the “Imaginary Pocket”, where the Elsa became trapped with the Rennes-Le-Chateau:
    “While not quite literally an “imaginary pocket,” this term is used here to refer to the space-time cleft between imaginary space and real space.”

    Anyone hoping for clarification from the sourcebooks would probably be disappointed.

    The Truth of Xenosaga does not delve into the development history at all, while the Perfect Guide offers a brief and un-detailed overview of the UMN history in a manner similar to the E3 DB, which however differs considerably from the ODM, the E2CG and even the E3 database:
    “The UMN has existed since the era of Lost Jerusalem. However, the UMN at that time was something on the level of information distribution, and hadn't yet achieved the realization of material transference.”

    According to this, the UMN had existed on Earth, which would signify that it existed before humankind had fled Earth, which is a substantial difference from the OE1C and the RE2C. Here, there’s no mention of Vector having any connection with the early UMN, which means that Vector was probably not responsible for its existence.

    Much like the E3 DB then, the Perfect Guide leaves the development history of the UMN equivocal. Here, we have no idea why the UMN was developed or when it was developed, not even in terms of a century, whereas the ODM and E2CG clearly established that it had been only in a nascent stage toward the end of the 21st century.

    Nonetheless, one could interpret the statement that “the UMN at that time was something on the level of information distribution” as implying that the UMN referred to here was in fact the Internet itself. As we know, the contemporary internet is an information-distributing network that doesn’t allow one to transport matter. Since Vector is not mentioned as having had any connection to this early UMN, and that it exists pre-disappearance of Earth, the internet fits the description of the early UMN quite well. Therefore, we could situate the UMN’s roots as the end of the 20th century in the context of the Perfect Guide in accordance with our own history.

    Things get murkier when we consider the CU. The Perfect Guide directly contradicts the idea that the UMN and the CU are one and the same, devoting an entire entry to defining the relationship between the two concepts:
    “The Collective Unconscious exists in the lower domain's imaginary number domain. It is something like a sky that canopies the entire world. Or something like a vast land on which everything stands. The Collective Unconscious in the imaginary domain is such an absolute existence that it is the structure of a gigantic consciousness.

    The UMN is something that uses this relationship in the network as infrastructure. In other words, the UMN is formed within the imaginary number domain from the network of consciousness -- the "Collective Unconscious" -- as its base.”

    The Truth of Xenosaga seems to support the idea of the UMN and the CU being distinct yet interconnected concepts, but it in turn conflates the concepts of the CU and the Imaginary Number Domain:
    “All consciousness exist in the imaginary number domain, and there is no separation between consciousness. In other words, the consciousness of others are completely and directly sensed. The Swiss psychiatrist Jung called this co-ownership of consciousness the "Unus Mundus" …

    The "UMN"in the story is something that uses the imaginary number domain -- the collective unconscious where no restrictions exist -- as a wide-area information network for performing space jumps and ultra-high-speed communication.

    …That is to say, when the collective unconscious-- the imaginary number domain-- scatters, then the universe that is made from the 2 domains of the imaginary and real-numbers, also has no choice but to scatter.”

    Let’s sum up all the different definitions of what the UMN is under the RE3C and the post-Episode 3 materials:

    Game: UMN = CU, relation to Imaginary Space unknown

    Database: UMN = CU, CU⊂ UMN, UMN = cleft between domains = Imaginary Pocket

    Perfect Guide: CU ≠ UMN, UMN ⊂ CU ⊂ Imaginary Space

    Truth Guide:  UMN ⊂ CU, CU=Imaginary Space

    As such, the exact nature of the relationship between Imaginary Space, the CU and the UMN is really quite muddled as of Episode 3, evincing that the concept of the UMN and the CU were revised several times during Episode 3’s development, leading to a lack of a unified UMN theory by the end. I’m pretty sure the people who developed Episode 3 and the Guides were all getting migraines from trying to keep straight just what exactly the UMN was.

    From everything we’ve seen then, the UMN’s history and conception would remain largely stable until the concurrent development of the A Missing Year and PS2 Episode 3. It appears that Yonesaka and Arai would not revise it in elaborate detail until the time actually came to involve the network itself in the plot and to ultimately explain how it related to everything else, including the Gnosis, Imaginary Space, destruction of the universe, etc. Thus, one’s understanding of what the UMN is, how it functions and where it came from shall differ greatly depending on which source he consults.

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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Neosmith on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:34 pm

    This naturally raises the question: “Which interpretation of the relationship between the UMN and the CU did Takahashi intend for the OE1C, if at all?”
    I have reason to believe that Takahashi envisioned the UMN and the CU as separate though interconnected concepts. One reason is that under the OE1C, as we’️ve established earlier, the UMN was developed as a technological manmade network, much like in the Perfect Guide. In other words, if the UMN is manmade, then it cannot be the CU.

    The second reason is that the ODM does in fact refer to the idea of the CU separately from the UMN in the Kirschwasser entry: “Each of the terminals possess identical outer appearances, much like clones, without emphasis on individuality. And, because they are directly linked to the same central system, it can be said that they are existences that embody the notion of what psychologists call, "

    a single collective unconscious."

    But the most likely reason why the CU and the UMN should’️ve been originally two separate concepts can be found in one of Takahashi’️s literary influences - namely, The Hyperion Cantos series by Dan Simmons, a four-part science-fiction series (1989-1997) that took place in a world where everyone and everything was connected through the use of the “The Farcaster Network/Worldweb.

    Simmon’️s Farcaster Network and the Datasphere which lies within it proves remarkably similar to Hashi’️s UMN. Both networks allow for instant connection between people across vast spatial and temporal distances as well as advanced means of transportation. The Farcaster is different from a UMN column - generating warps in spacetime, farcaster portals allow people to immediately travel from one part of space to another. However, the concept of the Datasphere essentially constitutes Simmon’️s take on the internet and functions like the UMN as a source of infinite information, communication across the universe, as well as allows virtual reality construction.

    More importantly however is that the series ultimately establishes that the Farcaster Network itself is based on/created from the “Void Which Binds”. It’️s hard in fact to describe the Void concept precisely and some different explanations for it exist. According to Councilor Albedo, one of the novel’️s recurring antagonists, it is a medium of Planck Space, “…a multidimensional medium with its own reality” (Simmons 334) which is “…everywhere and nowhere” (Simmons 335). The prophet Aenea meanwhile, whose words the novel accepts as the final truth, describes it as being “…stitched of quantum stuff, woven with Planck space, Planck time, lying under and around space/time like a quilt cover under and around cotton batting… neither physical, nor metaphysical, it flows from and responds to the physical laws of the universe but it is a product of that evolving universe… an artifact of the universe’️s consciousness of itself.” “The Void is all probability as standing waves, interacting with that standing wave front which is the human mind and personality… always under and above the surface of our thoughts and feelings.” (400)
    (Simmons, The Rise of Endymion 399-400)

    The best summary is arguably provided by the Cantos wiki:

    “The Void Which Binds is a dimension which is present nowhere and everywhere at the same time;

    as its name hints, it is the plane which unifies the whole existence, unlimited by space and time. Through the Void it is possible, in theory, to travel to any place and every time at an instant… It is suggested numerous times in the Cantos that the Void is the place where every consciousness is located, as a quantum wave of probabilities. The human emotion, reasoning and self awareness, as well as other sentient species', are projected in the Void.”
    Wiki: (http://hyperioncantos.wikia.com/wiki/Th ... hich_Binds)

    It’️s hard not to see the many similarities between the concept of the Void and that of the CU, as well as the Imaginary Domain. If one in fact considers the existence of a character named Albedo, similarly an antagonist, the similarities are far too great to be merely coincidental. Which is to say, that given Takahashi’️s intertextual referencing of numerous literary works of science fiction, it would not be a stretch to say that he had based his concept of the UMN on the Farcaster Network and in turn based the concept of CU on The Void Which Binds. Since the two concepts are distinct yet interconnected, a similar relationship should exist between their Xenosaga counterparts.

    I’️m quite certain that combining the CU and the UMN was originally Yonesaka and Arai’️s way of compressing the story and simplifying the concepts of Xenosaga’️s universe. It’️s certainly easier plot-wise to establish that the UMN is the CU, rather than try to outline how the UMN is a part of the CU, which in turn is a part of the Imaginary Domain, etc. This not only lowers the number of plot elements the series has to deal with, but also helps simplify the overall schema of the series and render its backstory and ‘mythology’️ less convoluted and so easier to grasp for the audience. That would certainly be well in line with all the other changes the two had made over the course of Episodes 2 and 3.

    So, why exactly would the series return to distinguishing the two concepts in the Perfect Guide and Truth Guide? Probably because someone must’️ve realized after the fact that combining the two concepts ultimately doesn’️t make a lot of sense, especially in the end of Episode 3 when the UMN and all its columns are destroyed, a development that effectively contradicts the ‘big reveal’️ about the truth of the UMN that occurred earlier in the game. In the final scenes of the series, Juli Mizrahi clearly states that “...with the loss of the U.M.N., you won’️t be able to use any transfer flight methods. All you’️ll have at your disposal is normal flight.” Meanwhile Shion implores Momo to work with Scientia
    “…to construct a brand new network.”

    So, here the game brings up the notion that the network is supposed to be man-made, despite the fact that the big reveal was that the UMN, being the CU is “…a fundamental part of nature”, that it was never constructed but always was. This clearly evinces that the concept of the two as being distinct had been in the cards at one point or another in the development of the PS2 Episode 3 and was then changed to the two being one and the same (or vice versa).

    Of course, revising the concept of the UMN would cause a “Butterfly Effect” as the UMN is connected to various other concepts, including Gnosis, U-DO, the Real and Imaginary Domains and the Collapse of the Universe. As such, changing one concept, for whatever reason, would necessitate changing the others for the sake of consistency.

    This is particularly important in light of the ‘universe dissipation/collapse/dispersal’️ concept that is central to the series’️ narrative resolution.

    According to the Perfect Guide, the Universe is dissipating because the Gnosis reject the CU: “Gnosis that reject others who do not match their own values break away and escape from the series of consciousnesses that must naturally join together -- the Collective Unconscious. This is the phenomenon of the dissipation of consciousness connected to the collapse of the universe. When the directionality of the rejecting consciousnesses of the Gnosis exceeds a critical point, then the structure of the imaginary number domain, which is based on the premise that all consciousnesses are interconnected, begins to break down.” The Truth Guide supports this concept of the Universe’️s collapse/dispersal:
    “But the End is something brought about by the consciousness of people who persistently reject the Collective Unconscious… That is to say, when the collective unconscious-- the imaginary number domain-- scatters, then the universe that is made from the 2 domains of the imaginary and real-numbers, also has no choice but to scatter.” Though technically, it should mean under the Truth Guide that it is the Imaginary Domain itself that scatters.

    In one version, the collapse of the CU causes the collapse of the Imaginary Domain, which causes in turn the collapse of the Universe. In the other, the collapse of the Imaginary Space, which is the CU, is the cause of the Universe Dissipation. All of them are linked to the Gnosis.

    Yet these explanations of the universe dispersal cannot really work with the RE3C, as per the game itself, where the UMN=CU. How can the Gnosis reject becoming a part of the CU, joining it, when they have been inside it so many times before, when they’️ve used it to attack people in the virtual reality, to traverse space itself, when Grimoire Verum has survived within it as a distinct individual for god knows how many years?

    The E3 Database puts it well: “Lately, a large number of Gnosis encounters have been reported on the U.M.N. and within the Encephalon. The mastermind behind Gnosis terrorism, Grimoire Verum, has also used the U.M.N. for various events, leading some to speculate about a connection between the U.M.N. and the appearance of Gnosis.”

    This evinces that in the context of E3 The Game, there must be a different explanation for the Universe’️s dispersal. Episode 3 never in fact properly explains as to why the Universe is dissipating in the first place, presenting many different versions. And none of those explanations point to the idea that the dispersal of the universe is caused by the rejection of the CU by the Gnosis.


    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga; U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Guest on Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:14 am

    Wow that's quite a big text,I'll read more later, but so far it's great! (1st post)

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    Re: Theories behind Xenosaga;U-DO,UMN and a common subconsc

    Post by Yikari on Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:22 am

    Thank you for putting these posts up, there is some good food for thought in there, IMHO. I hope you don't mind if I post my two cents in here.

    Despite all these database and guide entries I can't remember any part of the three episodes proper where the game has tried to sell the idea of "UMN=CU" to me instead of "UMN is a part of the astral plane (CU) that the humanity has appropriated and littered with some wireless internet transmitters/receivers with ultra-wide range in order to expedite as uniform spread of porn through the observable universe as possible with some side functions such as FTL matter transfer". There are of course the words said by Joachim during the Ep. III's mindscrew with the Old Miltia, but given that it was a simulacrum made by Kevin and co that altered the parts of the collective memories it was (presumably; at least that's how I interpreted what happened) made out of when and where it was convinient for them, I simply thought that it was what Kevin wanted our party (specifically, Shion) to believe, not necessarily what actually happened. Details pertaining to what Joachim said and did might've been very well one of those, seeing as how he shifts between two or three quite different behaviours with no pause in-between.

    Or maybe, since Joachim was at the 'Beach of Nothingness' at the time, his consciousness was unreachable for the purposes of this simulation and it was forced to compensate on the fly by filling out blanks with what people remembered Joachim by instead of his own memories of the events. Seeing as how the scene of him monologizing some religious-sounding stuff is almost directly lifted from Ep. I's 'surprise encephalon dive of the whole party' sequence, I'd say it was either Rubedo's or MOMO's contribution.

    It could also explain why Sellers remained unable to walk even after all these years with all that super medicine the setting has lying around - the fans' favourite kneecapping scene simply didn't happen and the dude either refused to walk normally because he had a pimpin' yoda floating chair or it is one of those neurological things even they can't cure. I doubt that he was that obsessed with Joachim that he refused treating the wounds. (At least I hope so. The sentiment is anime enough for it to be possible  :shaking: ).

    (And that's not even getting into the 'human memories are as mutable as castles in the sand' topic).

    My point is, I've seriously waited for the database to be updated with a 'ha-ha, fooled ya!' entry after the game ended. Only after seeing no such thing, I was forced to conclude that they might've been trying to say all that was for real. Which is... questionable at the very least, in my opinion.

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