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    Grahf and Elly

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    Nikkolas

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    Grahf and Elly Empty Grahf and Elly

    Post by Nikkolas on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:33 am

    This is an interesting little thing I was pondering...

    Grahf saves Elly on multiple occasions - first in Nortune and then later after Ramsus' attack. He also didn't attack her while on the Goliath. He did attack her though in Solaris.

    And of course on either side of beating her up he watched both her parents get brutally murdered. He didn't do it personally but he also didn't really stop it as she was tortured by Miang. He should know more than anyone that seeing those around her hurt is far more painful than even death to Elly.

    So my first question is - what, if anything, do you think Grahf felt for Elly?  Do you perhaps think he felt nothing for "this" Elly but he still loved Sophia? Or was he just too far gone in the sanity and emotional department to really love anything anymore?

    And now flip it around - did Elly feel anything for him? I was thinking on this as I recalled Lacan's finding Miang in Shevat. Some sort of ghost of Sophia appears and tries to warn him away. Assuming that was her actual spirit, she was  obviously trying to protect him from his rather grim fate even after death.
    But does modern Elly retain any of that affection for Lacan?  I know Fei is Lacan kinda but you get what I mean.
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    Grahf and Elly Empty Re: Grahf and Elly

    Post by Xernova on Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:51 am

    @Nikkolas wrote:So my first question is - what, if anything, do you think Grahf felt for Elly?  Do you perhaps think he felt nothing for "this" Elly but he still loved Sophia? Or was he just too far gone in the sanity and emotional department to really love anything anymore?
    I'd say Grahf sees Elly more as a reminder of Sophia, rather than loving her in the same way (I do think there may be some leftovers feelings of love for Sophia, but just like Krelian, he doesn't quite see Elly as "Sophia"). Hence why he protects her a few times and doesn't hurt her at first. But by the end of disc 1 those feelings seem to have faded away (perhaps with a little push from Miang) as he no longer holds back against Elly or does her any more favors.

    If anything, I think Grahf might be seen more as favoring Miang over Elly in the long run. She's the one who guided him to the power he longed for and, while I wouldn't say him "peeping on Miang" has to mean anything, I'd say they've got at least a strong "just-business" partnership.
    As such, I see Grahf/Miang as the dark counterpart to Lacan/Sophia (but probably not with any real love interest between Grahf and Miang).

    @Nikkolas wrote:And now flip it around - did Elly feel anything for him? I was thinking on this as I recalled Lacan's finding Miang in Shevat. Some sort of ghost of Sophia appears and tries to warn him away. Assuming that was her actual spirit, she was  obviously trying to protect him from his rather grim fate even after death.
    But does modern Elly retain any of that affection for Lacan?  I know Fei is Lacan kinda but you get what I mean.
    I don't think Elly sees Lacan/Grahf as the same man she loved as Sophia. The Lacan she loved would be modern-day Fei, while Grahf is more of a corrupted form of Lacan. At most, going with her Sophia-like mentality on disc 2, I'm guessing she might feel sorry for him and would want to ease his pain/set him free from the burden he's carrying. But no, I don't see Elly having any real feelings for him beyond that. Not in the same way she did for Lacan as Sophia or for modern-day Fei.


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    kare_reiko
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    Grahf and Elly Empty Re: Grahf and Elly

    Post by kare_reiko on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:44 pm

    I will just copy what I wrote this morning on Xenoten:

    Grahf/Lacan for sure loved Sophia.

    It's hard to get answer on that topic since both Grahf and Elly are not longer Lacan and Sophia.

    Let's start from Elly and Sophia. We know that both of them are reincarnation of one soul. Let's remember that each Elly reincarnation lived own life, their characters may be different a little since they lived in different eras, families etc. Core of soul was the same, but we can see that Sophia was different too, see color of her hair.
    Elly wouldn't ever become like Sophia since she has her own life, and even if she'd remember her past selfs then it won't change so much who she was in her life.
    Elly never spend time with Lacan, she would never become Sophia.

    Grahf/Lacan and Krelian knew this. That's why they both hurt and protect Elly in story. They knew that she isn't Sophia they loved, sill her image remind them of one their loved.

    Form Perfect Works we knew that Lacan soul died meanwhile and that was what was left is Grahf. Lacan soul was reincarnated in Fei.I'm not sure if Grahf still love anyone after that...

    It was always souls that connected Fei and Elly. Abel and Elly, Kim and Elly, Lacan and Elly, Fei and Elly...
    And since then I don't think Elly would love Grahf even if she saw that he looks like Lacan. Person Sophia loved was no longer in that body...


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    Grahf and Elly Empty Re: Grahf and Elly

    Post by katimus_prime on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:38 pm

    I always sort of assumed that Grahf had become so engrossed in his quest for power and the loss of *HIS* Elly that seeing the current Elly couldn't make all that great of an impact on him. Being so angry and determined for so long about something tends to make you forget the nice things you used to have, and the current Elly not being or having all of Sophia's memories is just another barrier.


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    RadicalDreamer
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    Grahf and Elly Empty Re: Grahf and Elly

    Post by RadicalDreamer on Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:21 pm

    @Nikkolas wrote:This is an interesting little thing I was pondering...
    And of course on either side of beating her up he watched both her parents get brutally murdered. He didn't do it personally but he also didn't really stop it as she was tortured by Miang. He should know more than anyone that seeing those around her hurt is far more painful than even death to Elly.
    Kinda reminds me of Kevin from Xenosaga actually. The guy loved Shion but sacrificed her folks anyway, regardless of how hurt she would feel. Power corrupts, I guess (and Kevin was a douche to begin with anyway). Krelian also loved Sophia and he basically also just stood and watched her getting beat up.
    I always thought Grahf still had feelings for Elly/Sophia because he saved her twice and didn't attack her on the plane but thinking about it... what if he just did this because he just needed her alive ? Grahf as he is is like Id without Fei... and as we saw it, Id was more than fine getting rid of Elly and only Fei could stop him. The difference is that Grahf had a plan. Id was just pissed about everyone and everything.
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    Grahf and Elly Empty Re: Grahf and Elly

    Post by Yikari on Mon May 05, 2014 12:54 pm

    Huh. I find it curious how differently one thing may be interpreted. Xenogears' vagueness on a number of important topics and just general incomplete state certainly don't help any, but still.

    Seeing as how I am a fresh blood and didn't see any sidematerial, fanfics and forum speculations before today, I'd like to share my perspective in hopes anyone finds it interesting.

    These points from kare's post:

    @kare_reiko wrote:...It's hard to get answer on that topic since both Grahf and Elly are not longer Lacan and Sophia.

    Let's start from Elly and Sophia. We know that both of them are reincarnation of one soul. Let's remember that each Elly reincarnation lived own life, their characters may be different a little since they lived in different eras, families etc. Core of soul was the same, but we can see that Sophia was different too, see color of her hair.
    Elly wouldn't ever become like Sophia since she has her own life, and even if she'd remember her past selfs then it won't change so much who she was in her life.
    Elly never spend time with Lacan, she would never become Sophia...

    I believe I've got the complete opposite impression in regards to Elly from the game. In my opinion, all Elly's reincarnations we were shown were quite similar to each other - almost eerily so. And further the plot progressed, more and more like Sophia the current Elly became. That universal care for wellbeing of everyone but herself to the point of suicidal behaviour? That is nothing like the Elly we see in the beginning.

    Now as for 'Fei'... Every 'Fei' we are shown are clearly different people beyond the unreal similarities in physical appearance, access to experiences all the previous 'Fei' lived through and strange propensity to repeatedly find themselves in the company of current generation's Elly (with about the same age gap each time too). In all shown cases they appear close to each other, in a sexual manner in some of them, but 'Fei' himself is different each time. Furthermore, after he sees what some of the previous 'Fei' were up to, he does not become more similar to any of them. He is not completely unchanged, but nowhere near what Elly goes through.

    XXX

    So, to Lacan - someone who at the time the game happens has already had a talk with whatever resides in the Zohar and at least has an inkling of a clue about what is happening - current Elly as she was when he meets her for the first time may have been less objectionable when compared to Elly behaving more and more like Sophia.

    I don't find it difficult to imagine that seeing the proof of the woman he loved feeling anything at all for him only because some machine has instilled a directive to respond to 'Fei' in such a manner ages ago (if what Krelian and Miyang-Karen talk about is to be assumed the norm for the whole duration of events, Elly may not be even born before the next 'Fei' does) with his own eyes - seeing the proof of Sophia being nothing more than a function in this circus of misery since she was born and to the moment of her death - may have ignited hatred so strong that it makes Id's destructive impulses seem like a temper tantrum in comparison.

    I find it reasonable to assume that Lacan's feelings for Sophia had not faded. They may have changed in nature, but the intensity has not lessened. It grew more and more, if anything. Remember: Lacan is the one character that values his own life less than even Sophia does. He would not have kept doing what he did for as long as he did if he was only concerned with his own wellbing, only his pain and suffering. IMHO, if that were the case, he would have long since killed himself. The next 'Fei' would be some other man with his face and maybe some of his memories. Lacan himself would no longer exist and thus will feel pain no more.

    Elly on the other hand... Elly will continue to be dragged around this mockery of life for years and years to come, compelled to conform to that one template as soon she meets 'Fei', effectively erasing whatever person she may have grown up as until the point of no return is met again.

    Now this would be a plausible reason for Lacan to want to erase this whole joint, wouldn't it? So no, neither Lacan's love nor his sanity has not gone anywhere, methinks. He just stopped caring for anything besides freeing the woman he loved from this fate.

    XXX

    This is full of headcanon of course, but it seems a likely explanation to what was shown in the game to me, so I wanted to share it with you.

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