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    Cherenkov

    Post by Guest on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:16 pm

    One of my favorite characters in the series. I really wish he had a more lasting effect on the story though, since he was kind of forgotten after his death.  Neutral

    He has one of the most tragic backstories, and in general is a very well-written character. I mean, his subplot is more interesting and well-written than a lot of the main plot. The scenes surrounding the boss fight against him, from Margulis' epic speech to the poetic white beach scene are also amazing. One of the things I hate most about the anime was how they removed his entire story.

    Anyways, how do you guys feel about him?

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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:42 am

    It's a pretty typical and sad example of what can happy in video games (or any fiction really) if you don't set up your pieces right. I know that if we had the actual six part series (this problem is brought up in almost every discussion, sorry) that we would've seen flashbacks or effects of Cherenkov. But yes, a simple mention of him (especially in Xeno III when Shion was dealing with her gnosis issues) would have been welcome.

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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Neosmith on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:08 am

    I love Cherenkov personally, if just for the fact that he's a Russian in a primarily Japanese/American environment.

    But if you've read my early critiques of Episode 1, you know that I have a lot of issues with how he was written throughout Episode 1 as an unbelievably incompetent double agent. Given how many times he blunders after the Woglinde debacle, it's a wonder that Margulis made him responsible for the Emulator mission in the first place. Added to which, nothing he does has any real bearing on the main plot, meaning he
    could've easily been cut from the game entirely.

    I mean, seriously, what was the point of him being the guy responsible for trying to steal KOS-MOS, if he never reveals any info about that to Shion?
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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by stitchedmoon on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:33 am

    Andrew Cherenkov is one of my favorite characters ever, despite (and/or because of?) the flaws in his story. I really sympathize with his feelings of alienation and rejection, and some of his fears and insecurities too. The Beach of Nothingness scene is hands-down my favorite bit of dialogue in all three games, although I wish he had come back or at least been mentioned later on. It seemed like Shion really cared about him and I don't think she would just forget about him after that. (Actually, I believe there was a line towards the end of the DS game where she mentioned wanting to see him and all the other dead/gnosis-ified people again someday, so add that to the very long list of things I wish had made it into the main series. :P )

    And yeah, I was so done with the anime after they killed him off early. C'mon, the poor guy hardly gets any screen time as it is, jeez.


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Xernova on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:04 am

    Cherenkov's story scenes in the Cathedral Ship was the first time that XSI finally managed to really grab my attention (I've said it a few times before, but XSI is my least favorite of the series). I agree his story is one of the best things in the series overall (as I've also said before, in the XS trilogy I like the subplots more than the main story, and Cherenkov's subplot is one of them). I really felt sorry for the guy, and I also wish he would at least have been mentioned again in XSIII (not counting the database).

    Of course, there are also some obvious parallels with the Xenogears character Ramsus, who is a character I like as well. But unfortunately;

    Spoiler:
    Cherenkov isn't as lucky as Ramsus and doesn't get a happy ending.
    R.I.P. Cherenkov. Forgotten in-game, but not by me. :[


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by katimus_prime on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:59 pm

    Andrew Cherenkov is my absolute favorite character in the entire series. Despite the flaws as a character and the problems with how the Ariadne story arc just doesn't connect to the main storyline at all, it's the thing that kept my interest the most, and the main reason XSI is my favorite game in the series. Caring about Cherenkov made me interested in Margulis, and being interested in Margulis made me hang on through the parts of XSII that I wasn't interested in, and was definitely one of the biggest reasons I came back for XSIII instead of just crawling back into a hole with the contingent of Xenogears fans who were unimpressed with Xenosaga as a whole. If the devs had taken more care in pointing out how the Ariadne plotline threads through the rest of the series, it would have worked a lot better, but I think it got lost in trying to tell a main separate storyline for each playable character. As an NPC, there is a really unbalanced amount of character development that was put into him versus the PCs only for him to have been completely forgotten after the Cathedral Ship's ending. I think the theme they were going for was that Cherenkov voluntarily separated himself from the rest of the world as it was, which put a bigger tear in the upper and lower domain (and you know, 6 billion more gnosis). It didn't really sink in because it wasn't explained very well, but one of the big tenants of Xenosaga (and Monolith's work in general) is that humanity (and or conscious beings in general I guess) is lessened when people refuse to connect to each other or cooperate with one another.

    And yeah, I am willing to admit that he is pretty incompetent in the parts of the story we're shown - the conflict in the entire first half of the game is because of stuff he screwed up. We're never really shown him being at his best.

    And my lunch break is over, but I'll be back in this topic soon.


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:49 am

    This is one of the parts that make me feel that Takahashi's planning and writing style in Gears/Saga doesn't lend itself to a game very well.  We are spoon-fed cutscenes about characters like Cherenkov that go on for hours and hours, but never come back around to have any real significance.  Usually in an RPG, you'd have the ability to go back to that character's home town or something, and learn more about them at will, throughout the game.  Xenosaga is a linear story-driven style of game, but it allows itself to get bogged down in these RPG-style side stories.  As a result, you've got a major proportion issue where Cherenkov is developed probably in more detail than Margulis, the actual villain.  

    It annoyed me that not only was Cherenkov a poor spy, but also that the characters around him were so oblivious to what was going on.  It feels so dumbed down.  Just in general, I don't like to feel as if all the main characters are stupid.   Especially not when Cherenkov's story is so dark, and requires some maturity to fully grasp.  

    I find it really fascinating that he was genetically altered in some way as a punishment/cure for his crimes, but he still could not help but give into rage and commit murder again.  It reads to me as that old message, the more you try to repress the ills of mankind, the more severe they get.  Even with what we got through flashbacks, there's not enough information to figure out exactly what they are trying to say with Cherenkov.  And it never intersects with the story, so it is never brought up again.

    Like, in a way, I'd rather just have a story about Cherenkov than his story being injected into Xenosaga's already convoluted plot.  Then I'd get to know all about him, and it really wouldn't have changed Xenosaga in any way.

    If Cherenkov has a purpose plot-wise, I believe that heis meant to give us an example of a human becoming a Gnosis, to set up the idea of that for later on in the story.  His backstory is just icing, demonstrating this cold and isolated future that could cause a number of people to make this transformation.  Him being assaulted and beaten is another example of this.  However, I think the point is undermined by how colorful and cheerful every single populated location is.  The cutscenes say one thing, the game itself says another.

    He suggests Shion could also end up this way, which would be awesome foreshadowing, except for it is later proven wrong, because the party possesses "shining wills."

    So, it's moot.   There was no danger of Shion ever becoming a Gnosis.  This is replaced instead by her randomly-fainting U-DO disease, with no reference back to her experiencing the Gnosis dissolution effect (or whatever you'd call it).

    Just one of those many things that probably made more sense in the first draft.

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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Neosmith on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:28 am

    You know, Glance, I think you and I have a lot in common when it comes to Xenosaga.

    In my early Retrospective post, I wrote about Cherenkov's problems at large and most of my views mirror yours:
    http://forums.xenotensei.com/index.php?topic=452.msg4338#msg4338

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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Guest on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:28 am

    Neosmith;

    I haven't had time to read all of your articles, but as far as I have read, I find them revealing.  I have sort of a masochistic fascination with deconstructing the weak points of stories after I've read (or watched) them. This leads people to think I'm bashing on them for no reason, but it's usually out of love.  

    Takahashi seems to be a guy with a lot of great ideas, and the charisma to work with a team of talented people.  He does not seem like a good planner, is the thing.  He has a kitchen sink approach where he wants to work on the smaller points more than the larger picture.

    There is a style of story structure predominant in Asian culture where characters sort of float through things without any central conflict.  It's similar to "slice of life" comics.  It lacks the basic skeleton of character motivation and conflict that we're used to in western audiences.  Takahashi seems to write more in this style, which is fine in itself.  The problem is where characters react in an illogical manner, or don't react at all.  Shion in particular is totally oblivious to even the most obvious cues.  

    It's sort of an artificial way of elongating the storyline so that the cast has time to explore all of these other issues that Takehashi wants to cram into the game, such as the Cherenkov arc.  As a result you end up with a product where the smaller parts are greater than the whole.  Cherenkov's story is more interesting than whatever Shion was doing throughout the entire game.
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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by JerriLeah7 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:37 pm

    Cherenkov is one of those characters that I must love for his entirety--which is rare.  Most characters I can honestly say I have a love-hate relationship based on their personality, habits, history, and style.  In fact, many characters generally have that one thing or quirk about them that annoys me or puts me off of them for some reason or another.

    Cherenkov, however, is another story.  I love him for his personality, his blunt and cold behaviors really mark the darker, inner parts of someone that not only holds more cards in the game than he's showing, but also for each flaw that he demonstrates, such as his incompetence towards his tasks for Margulis as mentioned above.  

    Everyone has to fail at some point in their life, and I don't mean a little--I mean a lot.  We all have those points in our lives where things just get worse and worse and we feel like we can't do anything right at all.  I honestly believe that this was Cherenkov's time to be useless, and as much as a "useless" character he may be viewed as in the series of the game, I believe that he added substance, just that little bit of spice of imperfection and muddled confusion and a sense of being lost as a person to add to the whole of the rest of the game of people and machines that can conquer anyone and anything with confidence.


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:57 pm

    Leah7 wrote:Everyone has to fail at some point in their life, and I don't mean a little--I mean a lot.  We all have those points in our lives where things just get worse and worse and we feel like we can't do anything right at all.  I honestly believe that this was Cherenkov's time to be useless, and as much as a "useless" character he may be viewed as in the series of the game, I believe that he added substance, just that little bit of spice of imperfection and muddled confusion and a sense of being lost as a person to add to the whole of the rest of the game of people and machines that can conquer anyone and anything with confidence.

    THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.  The reason I think I'm so attached to him is because he's so real-world relatable.  At least in my life, anyway.  I can't even begin to count how many time's I've had to stand up and take blame for something I did wrong and had to swallow it.  His story serves as a great example of how abuse in the chain of command, well, just...happens, and how sad it is that it does.


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by stitchedmoon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:16 pm

    YES. THANK.  I totally agree.  It's kind of ironic that, despite being a personality-altered super soldier who eventually turns into a giant space monster, he's arguably one of the more "human" and sympathetic characters because of his imperfections.  Seems like I relate more and more to his feeling like a reject and a screw-up as I get older. :B


    Last edited by stitchedmoon on Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by seishoujo on Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:30 am

    I like Cherenkov as well! He's one of many characters that succeed to break my heart upon their death
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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Yikari on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:02 am

    Big +1 to the posts above me - wouldn't be able to say that any better.

    I didn't like what they've done to the character, but I definitely have to agree that all the subplots that are tied to him are much, much more interesting than the actual 'main plot'.

    As for 'cutscenes being doom and gloom but locations stating otherwise', that may have been a deliberate dissonance: these and these horrible things have just happened, but the life still goes on, people still try to make the best of their lives with a laugh and a smile. Or maybe not. It is difficult to tell with JRPG Very Happy.

    The two big things I like about the story hinted at with the flashback barrage are:

    - How Margulis recruits Andrei at the low point of his life;

    I have no problem believing the dude could persuade children to strap on some explosives on them and go suicide bombers on some opponents of some great cause or some such.

    - How the Archetype incident wouldn't have happened without a very much deliberate and carefully planned sabotage. Ep I as whole does a much better job and showing that such things don't happen out of nowhere - there are no conveniently shaped toasters to invite demonic possession in Xenosaga after all. (Compare that to Ep. III's database: count all the cases of "it went out of control" or some variation of that. It's a bane of mecha anime stories everywhere, I tell you!)

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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by Guest on Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:25 pm

    I really enjoyed the character as well. One of the highlights of Xenosaga 1.
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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by stitchedmoon on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:14 am

    homg you guyyyyssssss


    (I was trying to find sheet music for Xenosaga so I'd have something to practice on my new keyboard setup but I found this instead. I am not even disappoint.)


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    Re: Cherenkov

    Post by katimus_prime on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:56 am

    OMG this is great!!!


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